Big, empty buildings. What's left?

Issues concerning Downtown as described by the Downtown Council. River to 31st Street, I-35 to Bruce R. Watkins.
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DaveKCMO
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Re: Big, empty buildings. What's left?

Post by DaveKCMO »

moderne wrote:The B of E block should be packaged with the almost cleared block to the west as a superblock(as McGee through Sprint Center was vacated). Such a parcel in such a prime area cries out for a really big project. Ideal for a massive tower too large for a single block. Parking structure could occupy most of B of E site and serve government area, Sprint Center as well as an office building.
there's plenty of opportunity on the BofE block without any other demolition. while i don't condone that for the BofE building itself, the setbacks and awful garage probably can't be properly fixed, so a demo is probably the way to go.

superblocks should not be allowed.
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Re: Big, empty buildings. What's left?

Post by FangKC »

I think the current BOE garage should be demolished and replaced with a bigger garage that could help service the 12th-13th, Grand-McGee block development, and some retail spaces could be added at street level.

I don't know if the BOE building could be modified to add-on street level spaces up to the curb. I'd like to see that type of modification, but it might affect any attempt to renovate the building using historic tax credits, which I think would be necessary to reduce costs for the rehab. The building is supposedly full of asbestos, which will need to be abated.
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Re: Big, empty buildings. What's left?

Post by Demosthenes »

moderne wrote:The B of E block should be packaged with the almost cleared block to the west as a superblock(as McGee through Sprint Center was vacated). Such a parcel in such a prime area cries out for a really big project. Ideal for a massive tower too large for a single block. Parking structure could occupy most of B of E site and serve government area, Sprint Center as well as an office building.
Would have been perfect for a Cerner tower. A thousand footer could have been built for them (or two 500 footers for that matter). Shoot maybe even two thousand footers, I don't know. Cerner would have been a massive sized project for downtown, and a signature skyscraper would have been built.
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Re: Big, empty buildings. What's left?

Post by flyingember »

Demosthenes wrote:
moderne wrote:The B of E block should be packaged with the almost cleared block to the west as a superblock(as McGee through Sprint Center was vacated). Such a parcel in such a prime area cries out for a really big project. Ideal for a massive tower too large for a single block. Parking structure could occupy most of B of E site and serve government area, Sprint Center as well as an office building.
Would have been perfect for a Cerner tower. A thousand footer could have been built for them (or two 500 footers for that matter). Shoot maybe even two thousand footers, I don't know. Cerner would have been a massive sized project for downtown, and a signature skyscraper would have been built.
The math of the Bannister campus would be something like 7 major towers downtown in square footage. That's how big that complex is. I think the math is in the bannister thread
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Re: Big, empty buildings. What's left?

Post by Demosthenes »

flyingember wrote:
Demosthenes wrote:
moderne wrote:The B of E block should be packaged with the almost cleared block to the west as a superblock(as McGee through Sprint Center was vacated). Such a parcel in such a prime area cries out for a really big project. Ideal for a massive tower too large for a single block. Parking structure could occupy most of B of E site and serve government area, Sprint Center as well as an office building.
Would have been perfect for a Cerner tower. A thousand footer could have been built for them (or two 500 footers for that matter). Shoot maybe even two thousand footers, I don't know. Cerner would have been a massive sized project for downtown, and a signature skyscraper would have been built.
The math of the Bannister campus would be something like 7 major towers downtown in square footage. That's how big that complex is. I think the math is in the bannister thread
That's insane. So if it all went into one skyscraper, are we talking it would maybe be the tallest building in the world? lol
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Re: Big, empty buildings. What's left?

Post by FangKC »

I would be all for Cerner in, or around, downtown, but not that block.

My pie-in-the-sky dream would be for Cerner to have redeveloped Paseo West and build several different-sized towers on six or seven blocks--maintaining the block integrity and street layout. There is an opportunity there to rebuild the neighborhood from scratch. They could have put in underground garages, and additional above-grade ones up against the freeway.

That many employees in that neighborhood would have jump-started the demand for new residential in and around the corporate buildings, and downtown in general.

It would have justified running the streetcar line from Main to Paseo along 12th Street. It would have expanded the skyline, and completely transformed a neighborhood. It would have been like when Hallmark built Crown Center.
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Re: Big, empty buildings. What's left?

Post by Demosthenes »

FangKC wrote:I would be all for Cerner in, or around, downtown, but not that block.

My pie-in-the-sky dream would be for Cerner to have redeveloped Paseo West and build several different-sized towers on six or seven blocks--maintaining the block integrity and street layout. There is an opportunity there to rebuild the neighborhood from scratch. They could have put in underground garages, and additional above-grade ones up against the freeway.

That many employees in that neighborhood would have jump-started the demand for new residential in and around the corporate buildings, and downtown in general.

It would have justified running the streetcar line from Main to Paseo along 12th Street. It would have expanded the skyline, and completely transformed a neighborhood. It would have been like when Hallmark built Crown Center.
That's definitely a nice idea, however I don't know if I like the idea of their headquarter sprawling quite so much. Obviously this is all fantasy anyway, but if they were still considering downtown I would like them to only build 2 or 3 buildings, max. Truly, I would want them to only build one building, but I wouldn't want it to be as tall as it would probably be in that instance. Any building taller than 1,000 feet in KC would maybe look a little awkward.

Having one company try and create an entirely new neighborhood with 7 buildings seems too one dimensional to me, even if you put retail on the ground floor of the buildings and made them pedestrian friendly. I don't even like it when we have districts of similar businesses in a small area, like the government district. The workers in the area are too alike, making for a not very diverse district.

Of course, it would certainly jump start fixing the whole area, which would be nice. I don't think it's a bad thing having development merely creep east though. The East Village and Paseo West neighborhoods will turn out much better if they are full of organic developments. I like how the East Village hasn't just been built all at once, of course I wish it was moving along a little faster. If there had been another 2 buildings built or so, along with a little retail, and the buildings weren't surrounded by as much garage parking as the first building is, then I would say the East Village would be coming along perfectly.

Either way, it would be much better if Cerner had chosen to build downtown.
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Re: Big, empty buildings. What's left?

Post by DaveKCMO »

Neal Patterson likes surface lots, reportedly because they reward those who arrive first to work with a shorter walk. Any Cerner downtown skyscraper fantasy is just that.
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Re: Big, empty buildings. What's left?

Post by flyingember »

Demosthenes wrote: That's insane. So if it all went into one skyscraper, are we talking it would maybe be the tallest building in the world? lol
not quite but it would be among the biggest buildings in the world. One World Trade Center is 3.5 million square feet. Burj Khalifa is 6 million square feet

the cerner campus 4.7 million square feet in total

One KC Place is 865,000 square feet

so the cerner campus is 6 buildings the size of the largest downtown
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Re: Big, empty buildings. What's left?

Post by Highlander »

flyingember wrote:
Demosthenes wrote: That's insane. So if it all went into one skyscraper, are we talking it would maybe be the tallest building in the world? lol
not quite but it would be among the biggest buildings in the world. One World Trade Center is 3.5 million square feet. Burj Khalifa is 6 million square feet

the cerner campus 4.7 million square feet in total

One KC Place is 865,000 square feet

so the cerner campus is 6 buildings the size of the largest downtown
The size of the Cerner campus is concerning when one considers what happened to Sprint's campus and how the city of Overland Park and Johnson County was able to leverage the vacant space to attract KC companies. A huge vacancy in the future at the Cerner campus could also impact the metro office distribution placing additional companies in that same distant parcel of nothingness where their presence has little impact on anything.
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Re: Big, empty buildings. What's left?

Post by Highlander »

DaveKCMO wrote:Neal Patterson likes surface lots, reportedly because they reward those who arrive first to work with a shorter walk. Any Cerner downtown skyscraper fantasy is just that.
Yes - I would be willing to get up at 5 AM to be able to save myself one minute of walking.
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Re: Big, empty buildings. What's left?

Post by Demosthenes »

Highlander wrote:
DaveKCMO wrote:Neal Patterson likes surface lots, reportedly because they reward those who arrive first to work with a shorter walk. Any Cerner downtown skyscraper fantasy is just that.
Yes - I would be willing to get up at 5 AM to be able to save myself one minute of walking.
What's sad is that there are actually people who feel this way. Of course they don't view it as only one minute of walking. It's a much more dramatic thing to them. The difference between parking next to their building and being a couple blocks away is the difference between life and death to them.
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Re: Big, empty buildings. What's left?

Post by Demosthenes »

flyingember wrote:
Demosthenes wrote: That's insane. So if it all went into one skyscraper, are we talking it would maybe be the tallest building in the world? lol
not quite but it would be among the biggest buildings in the world. One World Trade Center is 3.5 million square feet. Burj Khalifa is 6 million square feet

the cerner campus 4.7 million square feet in total

One KC Place is 865,000 square feet

so the cerner campus is 6 buildings the size of the largest downtown
That is so awesome. In a perfect world, I wish they would have built one skyscraper downtown at about half the planned size of their campus, with a space nearby for expansion. Then if they grow like they expect they could build another tower next door.

I can't believe that the Cerner campus will be almost as big as the Burj Khalifa. That is insane! And yet this imbecile wants to build a forgettable office park in south KC instead. He could build a signature skyscraper. Something that is an icon for the city of Kansas City. This could be something in which everyone recognizes his company's name right when they see it.

Maybe he is too modest. I just don't get it.
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Re: Big, empty buildings. What's left?

Post by Eon Blue »

DaveKCMO wrote:Neal Patterson likes surface lots, reportedly because they reward those who arrive first to work with a shorter walk. Any Cerner downtown skyscraper fantasy is just that.
Deliciously ironic given the corporate wellness program and emphasis on health.
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Re: Big, empty buildings. What's left?

Post by beautyfromashes »

Hey, Cerner hasnt built any office space in the core of the city while building all around it, but they gave us Sporting Innovation! What a treasure Cerner is for us. &
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Re: Big, empty buildings. What's left?

Post by FangKC »

I only proposed Paseo West because it's mostly industrial now. Many of the lots have few, or no buildings, on them. Some of the parcels that do have buildings really aren't worth saving anyway. This neighborhood would be a way to add towers to downtown office space and be able to hide parking underground and in interiors of blocks, or put garages up against the freeway where most office buildings and residential don't want to be anyway.

It's close enough to the Loop to add a streetcar line easily. The number of employees there would justify it. The neighborhood also has great freeway access to both I-70 and I-35, and artery streets like Paseo going south, and Independence Avenue going east.

One of my reasons for this idea is that it would add employees and Class A office space downtown on parcels that would not require demolishing more significant historic buildings. There are some old buildings I would save. New buildings could have whole blocks to work with.

The other goal would be to jump-start new residential building in this area as well, and the return to small-time retail, restaurants, and bars to the neighborhood. That many highly-paid employees working there would draw in developers like crazy.

Hopefully, it would also help home sales, and new infill construction, in neighborhoods like Beacon Hill, Union Hill, Hyde Park, Old Northeast, Columbus Park, etc. A spill-over effect might be that many older houses would also get renovated in the area, and sold to younger workers who want to live in the City.

We could really build up downtown population significantly if new housing was built in this neighborhood. There would also be room for larger retail stores like an Urban Target, since they could build a store from scratch.

But I doubt Neal Patterson thinks about things like that.
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Re: Big, empty buildings. What's left?

Post by flyingember »

beautyfromashes wrote:Hey, Cerner hasnt built any office space in the core of the city while building all around it, but they gave us Sporting Innovation! What a treasure Cerner is for us. &
the Cerner ownership got a big taste of the future with Kemper.
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Re: Big, empty buildings. What's left?

Post by Demosthenes »

FangKC wrote:I only proposed Paseo West because it's mostly industrial now. Many of the lots have few, or no buildings, on them. Some of the parcels that do have buildings really aren't worth saving anyway. This neighborhood would be a way to add towers to downtown office space and be able to hide parking underground and in interiors of blocks, or put garages up against the freeway where most office buildings and residential don't want to be anyway.

It's close enough to the Loop to add a streetcar line easily. The number of employees there would justify it. The neighborhood also has great freeway access to both I-70 and I-35, and artery streets like Paseo going south, and Independence Avenue going east.

One of my reasons for this idea is that it would add employees and Class A office space downtown on parcels that would not require demolishing more significant historic buildings. There are some old buildings I would save. New buildings could have whole blocks to work with.

The other goal would be to jump-start new residential building in this area as well, and the return to small-time retail, restaurants, and bars to the neighborhood. That many highly-paid employees working there would draw in developers like crazy.

Hopefully, it would also help home sales, and new infill construction, in neighborhoods like Beacon Hill, Union Hill, Hyde Park, Old Northeast, Columbus Park, etc. A spill-over effect might be that many older houses would also get renovated in the area, and sold to younger workers who want to live in the City.

We could really build up downtown population significantly if new housing was built in this neighborhood. There would also be room for larger retail stores like an Urban Target, since they could build a store from scratch.

But I doubt Neal Patterson thinks about things like that.
Oh yea man I totally get all that. It is a fine idea, and many great things could happen in that situation. I just personally like the idea of building only one or two buildings for the headquarter. Something that is tall and makes a statement. Now with as much square footage they are talking about, one building would be a bit too tall I think. I mean, it's not like we couldn't do it and it would certainly make a statement lol. But I wouldn't really want a building that's three times as tall as all the rest. Would look weird for sure.

Having it sprawl amongst several buildings would be too much of a campus concept for me, which I'm not a big fan of. It would be great to kick start the revitalization of the Paseo West neighborhood, but I wouldn't want it to be a Cerner ghetto, even with the apartments you are talking about adding. There would have to be LOTS to avoid the office park feel, not to mention other offices for other businesses.

That being said, that's only my opinion on the matter. If a majority of people were down with having a large company create a campus in the Paseo West neighborhood (or East Village for that matter), then I would be cool with it. I would just prefer a slower, more organic and diverse growth for those two neighborhoods.

Btw, is Paseo West the historic name for that neighborhood? I would be curious to know what that area has been called through the years.
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Re: Big, empty buildings. What's left?

Post by joshmv »

Demosthenes wrote: But I wouldn't really want a building that's three times as tall as all the rest. Would look weird for sure.
Not three times as tall, but Oklahoma City has to be one of the prime examples of this...

Image
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Re: Big, empty buildings. What's left?

Post by Demosthenes »

Haha oh wow, I had never seen that before. Yes that is a good example.

Of course it depends on many factors, not just height, because there are good examples too. New York City has a couple buildings like this, and especially did with the Twin Towers back in the day. They were much taller than the rest. And up in midtown the Empire State building is much taller than the rest of the skyline where it stands. Most buildings around it are under 500 feet tall.

There are differences though. An abnormally tall building doesn't look as odd when surrounded by many buildings. Oklahoma City's looks really weird because there are only a few skyscrapers around it. It wouldn't look as bad if it was in the middle of the tower grouping too. Unfortunately it is kind of to the side of all the buildings. And of course, one of the biggest factors on whether an abnormally tall building is too tall for a skyline or not, is if the building is attractive. The New York scrapers are beautiful buildings (except the twin towers, but man they were just so powerful). On the other hand, this building in OKC is butt ugly.

What a mistake that building was!
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