2013 downtown housing report

[earthling]

The 2013 report (created in Feb) shows these have been in the works. What's new since then and which are now more realistic?

http://www.downtownkc.org/wp-content/up ... port-1.pdf

[smh]

River Market West is supposed to start construction in July after getting their City money.

[KCMax]

215 W Pershing is being converted to residential.

[chrizow]

interesting. i wish it defined "core downtown" vs. "greater downtown neighborhoods." combined they have around 20,000, with basically 10,000 each. is "core" rivermarket/loop/xroads and "greater downtown" the periphery like westside/unionhill/columbuspark/crowncenter?

[earthling]

interesting. i wish it defined "core downtown" vs. "greater downtown neighborhoods." combined they have around 20,000, with basically 10,000 each. is "core" rivermarket/loop/xroads and "greater downtown" the periphery like westside/unionhill/columbuspark/crowncenter?

Yeah, I think that is the definition. They might be including CC with 'core' but can't tell. It appears Pershing is the S border of 'core' and up to 31st is 'greater downtown'.

So what other new projects from core to greater downtown? There's also the two new ones along Gilham in Union Hill area that aren't listed above. Folgers building was sold and will pursue market rate. Are the two listed in West Bottoms happening? Cordish Tower will supposedly break ground this Fall. What else?

The momentum doesn't feel quite the same as early/mid-2000s yet but more announcements have been picking up lately.

[kboish]

interesting. i wish it defined "core downtown" vs. "greater downtown neighborhoods." combined they have around 20,000, with basically 10,000 each. is "core" rivermarket/loop/xroads and "greater downtown" the periphery like westside/unionhill/columbuspark/crowncenter?

Yeah, I think that is the definition. They might be including CC with 'core' but can't tell. It appears Pershing is the S border of 'core' and up to 31st is 'greater downtown'.

So what other new projects from core to greater downtown? There's also the two new ones along Gilham in Union Hill area that aren't listed above. Folgers building was sold and will pursue market rate. Are the two listed in West Bottoms happening? Cordish Tower will supposedly break ground this Fall. What else?

The momentum doesn't feel quite the same as early/mid-2000s yet but more announcements have been picking up lately.

I think that's it for now...still pretty good pace coming out of the recession.

I feel like as soon as a new construction breaks ground in Xroads we will really feel the momentum. Seems like that has to be coming soon, right?

[earthling]

There have been rumblings of Commerce Tower (30 floors) going residential. Any substance to that yet?

[bobbyhawks]

There have been rumblings of Commerce Tower (30 floors) going residential. Any substance to that yet?

I know there are tennants that are looking to move, but I have not thought to ask why.

[flyingember]

interesting. i wish it defined "core downtown" vs. "greater downtown neighborhoods." combined they have around 20,000, with basically 10,000 each. is "core" rivermarket/loop/xroads and "greater downtown" the periphery like westside/unionhill/columbuspark/crowncenter?

it's really easy to find out the definitions when you look at the titles of their maps online

http://www.downtownkc.org/life/maps/

their definition actually doesn't line up with the official definition of a square bounded by Troost, MO River, state line and 31st

[flyingember]

There have been rumblings of Commerce Tower (30 floors) going residential. Any substance to that yet?

I know there are tennants that are looking to move, but I have not thought to ask why.

there's asbestos in the building. that means it probably hasn't been renovated in a while.

I bet it's that simple

[shinatoo]

Why aren't we seeing more of these building going mixed use? I would think there would be something to be said for living in the same building you work in. Especialy if there was a grocery near by.

[KCMax]

Why aren't we seeing more of these building going mixed use? I would think there would be something to be said for living in the same building you work in. Especialy if there was a grocery near by.

Not to mention the dearth of retail downtown. And isn't retail more lucrative for developers than housing? Or do I have that backwards.

Housing seems to be bouncing back in this economy, is retail bouncing back at the same pace or has it lagged?

[bobbyhawks]

Are the two listed in West Bottoms happening? Cordish Tower will supposedly break ground this Fall. What else?

I'm hoping that the answer is yes for the WB buildings. They have been spending some serious hours and burning the midnight oil in the bottoms lately to replace the sewers and redo some other subsurface stuff I don't understand. My friend pointed out they probably wouldn't be doing that without development momentum behind the efforts, and I definitely see his point.

As for other projects, the Westside High/Switzer school project in the Westside North is still a potential apartment addition to the region and is actually closer to the CBD than CC.

[flyingember]

Why aren't we seeing more of these building going mixed use? I would think there would be something to be said for living in the same building you work in. Especialy if there was a grocery near by.

Not to mention the dearth of retail downtown. And isn't retail more lucrative for developers than housing? Or do I have that backwards.

Housing seems to be bouncing back in this economy, is retail bouncing back at the same pace or has it lagged?

look at the demand.

apartments are 99% full while there's tons of existing retail empty. I can see this need bouncing back within a few years. see the new bank on Grand for this starting to happen

for live/work there's also so much empty office space there's no point to renovating anything with offices in it, especially when you can renovate a tower to 100% residential and fill it. most the converted buildings are failed office spaces.

[flyingember]

Are the two listed in West Bottoms happening? Cordish Tower will supposedly break ground this Fall. What else?

I'm hoping that the answer is yes for the WB buildings. They have been spending some serious hours and burning the midnight oil in the bottoms lately to replace the sewers and redo some other subsurface stuff I don't understand. My friend pointed out they probably wouldn't be doing that without development momentum behind the efforts, and I definitely see his point.

As for other projects, the Westside High/Switzer school project in the Westside North is still a potential apartment addition to the region and is actually closer to the CBD than CC.

the bottoms is becoming an arts/antiquing district. there's been a lot of movement in that area in recent years. It grew from 2-3 places and now it's big enough that the food trucks show up

[earthling]

Most retail chains probably want either dedicated parking available, a certain level of population within some range, or an already established retail center, which downtown CBD doesn't yet meet for most. I suspect of the various requirements, not many will think about downtown until the population bumps up maybe 1.5-2X more. Minneapolis probably has lots of retail because downtown population is over 30K, KC's is 20K and more spread out. The streetcar might boost interest too, though downtown STL doesn't have much retail either despite light rail and is losing Macy's. At least CC is getting a Hall's upgrade.

If KC could double the downtown population, everything else will be much easier to fall in place - retail, jobs, improved transit. Downtown living demand is high, occupancy is high and some buildings are getting away with $1.50/sqft rent, what more do developers want?

[loftguy]

Most retail chains probably want either dedicated parking available, a certain level of population within some range, or an already established retail center, which downtown CBD doesn't yet meet for most. I suspect of the various requirements, not many will think about downtown until the population bumps up maybe 1.5-2X more. Minneapolis probably has lots of retail because downtown population is over 30K, KC's is 20K and more spread out. The streetcar might boost interest too, though downtown STL doesn't have much retail either despite light rail and is losing Macy's. At least CC is getting a Hall's upgrade.

If KC could double the downtown population, everything else will be much easier to fall in place - retail, jobs, improved transit. Downtown living demand is high, occupancy is high and some buildings are getting away with $1.50/sqft rent, what more do developers want?

$1.50 psf rent will not cover the cost of new housing construction in midrise/highrise urban core settings.

So, developers want/need higher psf rental rates.

[FangKC]

In the present market, housing is less risky than anything else. 95+ occupancy rate. The economy has not recovered enough for people to take more risk on retail or commercial. It's probably easier to get financing for residential than anything else at the moment.

Retail just isn't strong enough downtown to create enough demand. There is still empty retail space in the Power & Light District, and elsewhere. Other spaces around downtown:

21 Ten Building street level space has sat vacant for years.
That restaurant space at 13th and Locust is empty too (Used to be Power & Light Bar & Grille).
The former Tanner's space at 10th and Broadway is empty
The former Seiden's Fur Building across the street is too.
The former Curves space in the base of the Harzfeld's Building at 11th and Main.
111 W. 10th street-level space is empty (across from Library parking garage).
Street-level space at 601 Walnut is empty.
The retail building at the NE corner of Grand and Admiral is empty.
Retail at 1200 Grand is empty (former Bonfil's Building)
Retail at 1006 Grand is empty.
Retail space at the SW corner of 12th and Oak is empty (corner space).
There is empty retail space in the Wallstreet Tower at 11th and Walnut.
There is space that could be retail in the base of One Kansas City Place.
Empty retail spaces in the TenCentral Parking Garage at 10th and Central.
Empty space in the building on the NW corner of 10th and Central.
Isn't 911 Broadway also empty?
The SW corner of 8th and Broadway (where Trozzolo used to be). I think it's called the Carnival Building (used to be the Isaacs Building).
The former Drafters bar space in Lucas Place.
Retail space in the old Muehlebach Hotel (where Country Club Bank was). There also that empty lounge space.
Empty retail space in the new 1110 Baltimore parking garage.
Empty retail space in the Mark Twain Building.
Not to mention empty and under-utilized potential retail spaces in the Crossroads District.

Keep in mind that many of the aforementioned spaces don't need major renovation (except Seiden's Fur, the building at Grand and Admiral, and numerous buildings in the Crossroads).

I don't think new retail spaces will come forth until the existing empty spaces are filled, and retail spaces become scarce. It's apparent there isn't enough population living downtown yet to accomplish that. We also are facing new challenges because a lot of traditional retail businesses are going away. We can't rely on bookstores, computer stores, music stores, video stores, etc. to fill these spaces.

Excluding retail and residential, one of the problems downtown is that there is a lack of large square footage of Class A commercial office space. It's hard to lure new employers downtown without that.

Most of the existing buildings downtown aren't considered Class A space, and those that are don't have enough continuous floors of Class A to accommodate any new employers of size. Adding to the problem is that Ten Main Center will probably empty out completely in the next few years. The building has some problems associated with it that need to be dealt with. I don't think it would be considered Class A space either.

I imagine that the GSA is going to have to rent their space for Federal employees in a lot of different buildings.

It's made me wonder though if the former Federal Reserve Bank is in good enough shape right now to house some of them. I imagine the Fed kept that building in pretty good shape. However, is it "ready-to-go" space that could be rented?

We need to add a lot more residential downtown. That's probably going to require some new buildings in addition to renovations of older buildings for residential.

I predict that the Commerce Tower will go residential because I don't see enough commercial demand for it. The Mark Twain Building, Scarritt Building, Oak Tower, Grand Avenue Temple office building, UMB's Ozark Building (at 906 Grand), Brookfield Building (at 11th and Baltimore) Traders on Grand, and Ten Main Center will all probably go residential as well. City Center Square will probably go partially residential at some point, so it might be a true mixed-use building.

The Power and Light Building will probably go completely residential as well, since I can't see it being used for anything else. A hotel might get built around it on the west and north parcels, but the old tower probably will never be used for hotel rooms.

The Board of Education Building might go residential at some point, and the former library space could be retail or commercial. I know the City looked at that building at one point, but I don't think they were interested. The old library space probably needs to be completely gutted.

This might present a problem at some point with the ability to live/work downtown when you have so many buildings that used to be commercial going completely residential. There needs to be significant sq. footage of new commercial class A space added as well. This is when some surface parking lots are going to need to get developed.

However, even then it's going to be a challenge because of so many mergers and acquisitions reducing the number of employers who need space. Add to that that the few growing KC-based companies like Cerner and Garmin aren't downtown. Other large employers like CorEnergy, Inergy LP, Ferrellgas, Applebee's, Embarq/CenturyLink, YRC Worldwide, BATS, Farmer's Insurance Group, American Century, Waddell & Reed, and Lockton aren't downtown. Black & Veatch and Burns & McDonnell aren't downtown. Citigroup isn't downtown.

For all these reasons, it's going to be hard to do much mixed use.

Right now, the City needs to be focusing on residential, and upgrading downtown in quality environmental elements. To attract big employers back downtown, the environment needs to meet that aesthetic of the Country Club Plaza. The Plaza has succeeded for 90 years. One does that with great architecture, landscaping, flowers, trees, cleanliness, art, fountains, outdoor seating for restaurants and bars, making old buildings look nice again, removing surface parking lots, and providing a sense of safety. If it can do that, and have the added element of good mass transit, then downtown can compete again. It's easy to get downtown from most places in the Metro, and if you have a lot of workforce able to live nearby, then the potential returns.

[FangKC]

Most retail chains probably want either dedicated parking available, a certain level of population within some range, or an already established retail center, which downtown CBD doesn't yet meet for most. I suspect of the various requirements, not many will think about downtown until the population bumps up maybe 1.5-2X more. Minneapolis probably has lots of retail because downtown population is over 30K, KC's is 20K and more spread out. The streetcar might boost interest too, though downtown STL doesn't have much retail either despite light rail and is losing Macy's. At least CC is getting a Hall's upgrade.

If KC could double the downtown population, everything else will be much easier to fall in place - retail, jobs, improved transit. Downtown living demand is high, occupancy is high and some buildings are getting away with $1.50/sqft rent, what more do developers want?

$1.50 psf rent will not cover the cost of new housing construction in midrise/highrise urban core settings.

So, developers want/need higher psf rental rates.

Loftguy is correct. One of the double-edged swords in Downtown, and in KC overall, has to do with the low cost of rents. It's certainly attractive in the sense that KC has a reputation for a low-cost of living, low cost of housing, etc. Office space is very cheap here. However, that presents a problem whenever you want to build anything new that isn't on raw farmland.

It's why you don't see speculative Class A buildings and new apartment towers built downtown.

[earthling]

$1.50 psf rent will not cover the cost of new housing construction in midrise/highrise urban core settings.

So, developers want/need higher psf rental rates.

Ah, I thought Cordish Tower was triggered based on $1.50/sqft.

Edit: Found that downtown Denver is targeting $2 psf. Hope KC doesn't need to be that high to attract new hirise construction.
http://outfrontonline.com/living/denver ... tion-boom/