13th and Grand tower

Issues concerning Downtown as described by the Downtown Council. River to 31st Street, I-35 to Bruce R. Watkins.
pash
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Re: 13th and Grand tower

Post by pash » Sun Jun 14, 2015 8:20 pm

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Last edited by pash on Mon Feb 13, 2017 9:10 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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normalthings
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Re: 13th and Grand tower

Post by normalthings » Sat Dec 19, 2015 12:49 am

Copaken Brooks Website shows that this property has 21,000 SQFT of 500,000 SQFT left to rent. Anyone have anymore information about this?

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Re: 13th and Grand tower

Post by FangKC » Sat Dec 19, 2015 3:37 am

My criticism is that this design places four levels of garage facing the intersection of 12th and Grand, which is sort of crappy. That is a major intersection and pedestrian corridor. I would think you would want your retail there instead of along 13th Street, which leaves a lot to be desired as a pedestrian street. 12th and Main already is better suited to group retail stores together. There is the first floor of the Palace Clothing Co. building; the retail frontage of the Bonfils Building; potentially some retail in the Traders on Grand Building; the retail spaces in the WallStreet garage; and in the Argyle Building.

Secondly, this design takes out the existing building at 12th and McGee where Zoo Bar is. If you shifted the garage to the south end of the block, you could probably retain that building, and use the retail spaces in it. I've suspected demolition of that building was always in the plan. However, I really don't think it's necessary. You could design around it.

I don't see that setback on the corner of 13th and Grand to be necessary. Why not build right up to the corner of the block? It creates more usable square footage. I don't think any pedestrian plaza is needed there. There is a large plaza in front of the Sprint Center already.

However, I must say that I like this version better than that earlier version with the lone tower on the south end of the block sitting on a raised platform.

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Re: 13th and Grand tower

Post by kboish » Sat Dec 19, 2015 10:06 am

So these proposed towers have 16k and 14k sqft floor plates for office with a total of 256k sqft and 840 parking space with proposed office use (plus 90,000 sqft of Retail so one would assume a portion of those parking spaces would go to retail).

Ten Main's floor plates are 13,800 Sqft with a total of 295,000 sqft and a total of 737 parking spaces. I thought the argument for a TIF at ten main center was that the floor plates are too small and there wasn't enough parking to support office uses? These look pretty identical.

And yes, the design had better treat grand as the focus of the building and not have set back loading docks as shown in the pictures.

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Re: 13th and Grand tower

Post by aknowledgeableperson » Sat Dec 19, 2015 10:17 am

1. Retail at 13th St puts it closer to the foot traffic of KC Live and the Sprint Center.
2. The setback at 13th & Grand looks like it balances out the Setback for the NABC building across the street.
3. The loading docks are not located along Grand.

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Re: 13th and Grand tower

Post by kboish » Mon Apr 18, 2016 8:29 am

The TIF ordinances (051528)for this parcel has shown up on the docket for PZE this week. Its hard to tell if that means something is moving forward or if they are taking it off or if it will be on hold or what. Project is described as:
Project 12 proposed to construct of a mixed use project which shall include 270,000 square feet of office, hotel or residential uses and 50,000 square feet of retail use and construct of 1,300 space garage.
http://cityclerk.kcmo.org/LiveWeb/Meeti ... bSY6Ycaea6

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Re: 13th and Grand tower

Post by GRID » Mon Apr 18, 2016 10:06 am

So does this mean the twisty tower has been scrapped? I wonder why they have two very different proposals? I almost think they had an office tower proposed, but now have some potential tenants (both hotel and office, maybe even a large retail tennant) for this mixed use project. I'm not sure Downtown KC is ready for a 500,000 sq ft spec office tower, but 250k might be doable.

While the twisty tower would be a nice addition to the skyline, I think the lowrise mixed used project would be much better use of the site and be much more street friendly and active. It's far from perfect because it has so much above ground garage, but it does have hotel and retail which will add vibrancy to the area. The twisty tower is a terrible design from a urban planning standpoint, but it would be nice to see a new office tower go up in KC, especially east of Grand.

That new rendering looks like it could accommodate an urban Target or something similar.

Image

This thing is single use and the entire block is a parking garage. Not a good plan. I wouldn't turn it down, but I think the mixed use project would be a better fit for this location.

Image

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Re: 13th and Grand tower

Post by chingon » Mon Apr 18, 2016 3:42 pm

GRID wrote:
That new rendering looks like it could accommodate an urban Target or something similar.
What new rendering?

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Re: 13th and Grand tower

Post by pash » Mon Apr 18, 2016 3:51 pm

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normalthings
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Re: 13th and Grand tower

Post by normalthings » Thu Apr 21, 2016 1:48 pm

Image


Copaken Brooks Website saysy that only 1 space is avalible for the tower, and its a retail space. Could the project be moving forward? or nah.

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Re: 13th and Grand tower

Post by LikesDevelopment » Thu Apr 21, 2016 2:12 pm

ldai_phs wrote:Could the project be moving forward?
Possibly? There was a fairly thorough write-up about the project in the KCBJ today: http://www.bizjournals.com/kansascity/n ... enter.html

Looks like Copaken Brooks could be running out of time for this specific project, if they wait much longer.

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Re: 13th and Grand tower

Post by pash » Thu Apr 21, 2016 2:32 pm

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Re: 13th and Grand tower

Post by KC_JAYHAWK » Thu Apr 21, 2016 2:59 pm

Really, what has Copaken done downtown in the last 20 years? 10 years ago they put out pictures of an office tower at 1034 Main, that I believe is still on their website, and now they have been sitting on this lot for 10 years, dropping hints every few years of a new office tower, but in the end, crickets.

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Re: 13th and Grand tower

Post by DaveKCMO » Thu Apr 21, 2016 8:09 pm

KC_JAYHAWK wrote:Really, what has Copaken done downtown in the last 20 years? 10 years ago they put out pictures of an office tower at 1034 Main, that I believe is still on their website, and now they have been sitting on this lot for 10 years, dropping hints every few years of a new office tower, but in the end, crickets.
if by 'downtown' you mean 'CBD' then they have built nothing new. greater downtown they have started corrigan and will start ARTerra later this year.

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Re: 13th and Grand tower

Post by KCPowercat » Thu Apr 21, 2016 8:22 pm

kind of tough to blame them for not building new spec towers when office space is everywhere.

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Re: 13th and Grand tower

Post by UrbanKC » Fri Apr 22, 2016 8:46 am

KCPowercat wrote:kind of tough to blame them for not building new spec towers when office space is everywhere.
Exactly, there's still a ton of office space available downtown. Not all of it may be desireable for some companies, but it isn't worth a developer investing in a 12-30 story office building without having either a real committment by one company to occupy it, or without high demand and low supply.

In my personal opinion, which isn't worth anything in reality...

I would add residential units to the Town Pavilion and City Center Square buildings. I'd renovate City Center Square entirely to residential, and use the stepbacks in the building's design to add rooftop greenspace and rooftop restaurant seating. Additionally, I'd add balconies to some of the windows to break up the monotony and modernist feel of the building.

That would take out more office space downtown that companies might consider "outdated" or unfit for modern corporate use, and allow for new construction suitable to contemporary needs.

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Re: 13th and Grand tower

Post by kcjak » Wed Jun 08, 2016 3:04 pm

Copaken given 7 years to start construction. Article mentions the only uses as residential, hotel or office space, so does that leave retail out completely or just a lack of solid investigative reporting?

http://www.kansascity.com/news/business ... 43982.html

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Re: 13th and Grand tower

Post by KC_JAYHAWK » Wed Jun 08, 2016 3:10 pm

Great, 7 more years as a parking lot. I'm not a developer, but I'm thinking Copaken isn't either.

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Re: 13th and Grand tower

Post by mister816 » Wed Jun 08, 2016 3:25 pm

that sucks. the most prominent parcel in our downtown will remain a parking lot for years to come. way to go kansas city.

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Re: 13th and Grand tower

Post by FangKC » Thu Jun 09, 2016 3:28 am

It doesn't mean the parcel will remained undeveloped for seven years. It just means that is when the TIF agreement will expire if Copaken does nothing with the parcel. Then the TIF process would have to start over under new terms--if at all.

It's not uncommon for a developer to not start building until they have a tenant, or a certain amount of the square footage pre-leased. Copaken couldn't get private financing to erect the building without the same conditions, unless he was doing a speculative building and financing it with his own money. Kansas City doesn't have a hot enough real estate market to do a large speculative building without a signed tenant(s). Unless the developer financed it out of their own pocket, and could endure a potentially long period to recoup.

What we really need is the same sort of pro-active effort by the Mayor and Economic Development Council to help Copaken secure a tenant--like Mayor Kay Barnes' effort to lobby H&R Block to move to a downtown tower.

If I were the orchestrating approval of this TIF amendment though, I would have mandated City TIF support include retaining the small historic retail building on the SW corner of 12th and McGee, and place conditions that Copaken build around it. It would have maintained a historic building, and retained some small retail space. Buildings of this size and vintage provide cheaper rents for smaller retail operations like coffee shops and restaurants--especially those that aren't national chains.

Copaken may design the street-level spaces in a way that they can be office space at first, and then be configured for retail space later.

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