13th and Grand tower

Issues concerning Downtown as described by the Downtown Council. River to 31st Street, I-35 to Bruce R. Watkins.
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normalthings
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Re: 13th and Grand tower

Post by normalthings » Thu May 31, 2018 6:51 pm

KCLover wrote:
GRID wrote:There really is not a better location in the city for large tower than that spot. It's sad it's a freaking parking lot that might be a small office building in ten years. I honestly don't see Copaken ever doing anything productive with it. Somebody else needs to come in and buy the land and develop it, but KC has not quite reached the point of having major national developers come in and do towers (residential, hotel or office) and there is no corporate presence downtown to help push things along.
As long as we keep losing downtown corporate businesses to Overland Park, there won't be anyone willing to build a spec 35 story building in KC. The only way something like that happens is with a large tenant taking up multi-floors. I guess there is the weird off-chance it could be half hotel, half office with a City Target on the ground floor, but that's probably a pipedream.

You can try the build it and they will come mentality and you might pluck some businesses out of 1KC Place, etc that want trendy new office space, but then that empties existing buildings and creates another issue at which nobody wins.
No. That is probably the strategy we want to go for anyways. For example, KCPL building their own tower would then free up relatively good Class A space in 1KCP. This large amount of space would have modern finishes and be ready to go almost immediately. Then small-mid sized firms would be able to move into that pre finished downtown space. Current downtown firms moving up to nicer new buildings allows other outside firms or smaller downtown firms to move up into the unoccupied space. It's similar To the process of moving up and in that we have seen in the apartment side.

On another note, I think mixes use projects like the one we have seen so far are the best way for us to get new office space. The hotel/apartment/retail portions help to reduce the risk associated with spec office and the income from those portions helps fill gaps until the office space isn't leased out.

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Re: 13th and Grand tower

Post by GRID » Thu May 31, 2018 9:44 pm

ldai_phs wrote:
KCLover wrote:
GRID wrote:There really is not a better location in the city for large tower than that spot. It's sad it's a freaking parking lot that might be a small office building in ten years. I honestly don't see Copaken ever doing anything productive with it. Somebody else needs to come in and buy the land and develop it, but KC has not quite reached the point of having major national developers come in and do towers (residential, hotel or office) and there is no corporate presence downtown to help push things along.
As long as we keep losing downtown corporate businesses to Overland Park, there won't be anyone willing to build a spec 35 story building in KC. The only way something like that happens is with a large tenant taking up multi-floors. I guess there is the weird off-chance it could be half hotel, half office with a City Target on the ground floor, but that's probably a pipedream.

You can try the build it and they will come mentality and you might pluck some businesses out of 1KC Place, etc that want trendy new office space, but then that empties existing buildings and creates another issue at which nobody wins.
No. That is probably the strategy we want to go for anyways. For example, KCPL building their own tower would then free up relatively good Class A space in 1KCP. This large amount of space would have modern finishes and be ready to go almost immediately. Then small-mid sized firms would be able to move into that pre finished downtown space. Current downtown firms moving up to nicer new buildings allows other outside firms or smaller downtown firms to move up into the unoccupied space. It's similar To the process of moving up and in that we have seen in the apartment side.

On another note, I think mixes use projects like the one we have seen so far are the best way for us to get new office space. The hotel/apartment/retail portions help to reduce the risk associated with spec office and the income from those portions helps fill gaps until the office space isn't leased out.
Exactly. KC needs new big blocks of office space, even if that means moving tenants out of existing office space. For example, it would be totally fine to give tax breaks to move a company from One KC Place to a new tower. Whatever it takes to get a new tower up (without going crazy of course). One KC place is still a really nice class A building. Even it became half empty because tenants left for a new tower, it would fill back up with mostly multi tenants. It's very difficult to start a new tower without a major tenant commitment and since big KC companies don't do downtown, that's never going to happen. So when an existing downtown company needs more space, the city should do everything in their power to help them build new office space rather than lease existing space. That's the only way downtown KC will ever get a new large office tower.

Once a new tower opens Downtown KC would have some nice options for relocating companies etc. The end result is more office space and more jobs. Just keeping the same amount of office space and waiting for vacancy rates to drop to 5% will never work. All the cities that overbuilt office space eventually filled it all up mostly with new jobs to their downtowns and now are in the process of overbuilding again. They will go through some down times, but in the long run, they will end up with thousands more people working downtown.

This is why I wish KC would have given KCPL incentives to build a new tower rather than lease One KC Place. That was the last time KC was in a position to get a decent sized office tower built.

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Re: 13th and Grand tower

Post by WoodDraw » Thu May 31, 2018 9:54 pm

I agree with everything above. I think KC would and will support a spec tower downtown, but we need a developer to build it.

Was the KCPL tower killed under funk? I wonder how long their lease is

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Re: 13th and Grand tower

Post by normalthings » Thu May 31, 2018 10:41 pm

Cerner will at one point have to build downtown. So will Garmin. And all of the other big tech companies trying to attract young tech talent. I find it interesting how they have urban offices in other cities yet pick the suburbs in KC.

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Re: 13th and Grand tower

Post by Highlander » Thu May 31, 2018 11:35 pm

GRID wrote:
ldai_phs wrote:
KCLover wrote:
As long as we keep losing downtown corporate businesses to Overland Park, there won't be anyone willing to build a spec 35 story building in KC. The only way something like that happens is with a large tenant taking up multi-floors. I guess there is the weird off-chance it could be half hotel, half office with a City Target on the ground floor, but that's probably a pipedream.

You can try the build it and they will come mentality and you might pluck some businesses out of 1KC Place, etc that want trendy new office space, but then that empties existing buildings and creates another issue at which nobody wins.
No. That is probably the strategy we want to go for anyways. For example, KCPL building their own tower would then free up relatively good Class A space in 1KCP. This large amount of space would have modern finishes and be ready to go almost immediately. Then small-mid sized firms would be able to move into that pre finished downtown space. Current downtown firms moving up to nicer new buildings allows other outside firms or smaller downtown firms to move up into the unoccupied space. It's similar To the process of moving up and in that we have seen in the apartment side.

On another note, I think mixes use projects like the one we have seen so far are the best way for us to get new office space. The hotel/apartment/retail portions help to reduce the risk associated with spec office and the income from those portions helps fill gaps until the office space isn't leased out.
Exactly. KC needs new big blocks of office space, even if that means moving tenants out of existing office space. For example, it would be totally fine to give tax breaks to move a company from One KC Place to a new tower. Whatever it takes to get a new tower up (without going crazy of course). One KC place is still a really nice class A building. Even it became half empty because tenants left for a new tower, it would fill back up with mostly multi tenants. It's very difficult to start a new tower without a major tenant commitment and since big KC companies don't do downtown, that's never going to happen. So when an existing downtown company needs more space, the city should do everything in their power to help them build new office space rather than lease existing space. That's the only way downtown KC will ever get a new large office tower.

Once a new tower opens Downtown KC would have some nice options for relocating companies etc. The end result is more office space and more jobs. Just keeping the same amount of office space and waiting for vacancy rates to drop to 5% will never work. All the cities that overbuilt office space eventually filled it all up mostly with new jobs to their downtowns and now are in the process of overbuilding again. They will go through some down times, but in the long run, they will end up with thousands more people working downtown.

This is why I wish KC would have given KCPL incentives to build a new tower rather than lease One KC Place. That was the last time KC was in a position to get a decent sized office tower built.
What is likely to happen and may already be happening is that some developers with more gusto than Copaken but lacking the deep pockets to build the big tower starts to build 5-7 story inventory. That increases vacancy rates and undermines Copaken's risk adverse philosophy making the big tower less practical and the vicious cycle starts all over. In KC, you practically need to have a company in need of 20 floors in the hand before building begins. Waiting for vacancy rates to drop will never work because smaller developers are more willing to jump in with the intermediate and small office buildings before the rates drop to something like Copaken needs to see for the bigger solution.

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Re: 13th and Grand tower

Post by normalthings » Thu May 31, 2018 11:44 pm

I disagree. I think what we and the KC Club developers see is that a small spec projects like Corrigan Station are filled with non downtown firms. Thus downtown vacancies don’t really increase. The more times KC proves 5-10 stories spec projects pay off, the more likely and more able someone is to take risk.

P.S. I am stuck in an airport terminal. Otherwise I wouldn’t be posting so much.

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Re: 13th and Grand tower

Post by DaveKCMO » Sat Jun 09, 2018 11:09 am

I've heard the original "Copaken twisty tower" is no longer a thing and something new is afoot for this parcel.

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Re: 13th and Grand tower

Post by TheLastGentleman » Sat Jun 09, 2018 11:13 am

Seems odd they'd scrap that design so soon after putting out that rendering video. Thus is the design process, I suppose

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Re: 13th and Grand tower

Post by normalthings » Sat Jun 09, 2018 11:21 am

TheLastGentleman wrote:Seems odd they'd scrap that design so soon after putting out that rendering video. Thus is the design process, I suppose
Could be a sign they have a real tenant(s) interested/lined up.

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Re: 13th and Grand tower

Post by beautyfromashes » Sat Jun 09, 2018 11:23 am

DaveKCMO wrote:I've heard the original "Copaken twisty tower" is no longer a thing and something new is afoot for this parcel.
Very, very early negotiations with mid-large metro company. I’d give it a 10% chance of happening. The twisty tower is basically just a placeholder when marketing. I’d anticipate it coming back until they actually land a company.

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Re: 13th and Grand tower

Post by normalthings » Sat Jun 09, 2018 11:31 am

What size building if that deal actually happened?

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Re: 13th and Grand tower

Post by normalthings » Wed Jun 27, 2018 11:28 am

Heard a construction firm has been lined up for a 20-30 story tower in downtown. Not the usual construction player.

Not sure if it’s for this project or not.
Last edited by normalthings on Wed Jun 27, 2018 11:38 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: 13th and Grand tower

Post by hartliss » Wed Jun 27, 2018 11:37 am

normalthings wrote:Heard a construction firm has been lined up for a 20-30 story tower in downtown. Not the usual player.

Not sure if it’s for this project or not.
Hmmm......................curious about the details when they come out!

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Re: 13th and Grand tower

Post by kboish » Wed Jun 27, 2018 12:45 pm

3 light's incentives were formally approved last week. Could be that I suppose

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Re: 13th and Grand tower

Post by normalthings » Wed Jun 27, 2018 12:56 pm

kboish wrote:3 light's incentives were formally approved last week. Could be that I suppose
It didn’t sound like it

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Re: 13th and Grand tower

Post by KCPowercat » Wed Jun 27, 2018 12:58 pm

take it to the rumor page with some real deets!

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Re: 13th and Grand tower

Post by normalthings » Wed Jun 27, 2018 1:10 pm

KCPowercat wrote:take it to the rumor page with some real deets!
The what?

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Re: 13th and Grand tower

Post by KCPowercat » Wed Jun 27, 2018 1:11 pm

viewforum.php?f=10

Has anonymous posting available

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Re: 13th and Grand tower

Post by smh » Wed Jun 27, 2018 3:29 pm

normalthings wrote:Heard a construction firm has been lined up for a 20-30 story tower in downtown. Not the usual construction player.

Not sure if it’s for this project or not.
Could be Crown Center.

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Re: 13th and Grand tower

Post by TheLastGentleman » Wed Jun 27, 2018 4:50 pm

Maybe this?

Image

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