13th and Grand tower

Issues concerning Downtown as described by the Downtown Council. River to 31st Street, I-35 to Bruce R. Watkins.
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GRID
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Re: 13th and Grand tower

Postby GRID » Sun May 20, 2018 1:30 am

This project is confusing. The description says it's a 10 story 320,000 square feet building which it more like the size of the second rendering Copaken released last year that looks nothing like the spiral tower they keep throwing out there. At the same time, they keep showing pics of the 25 story 550,000 square foot spiral tower. Which building are they actually pursuing?

At first the pedestal looks like a parking structure, but with 50,000 sq feet of retail (what is mentioned for retail space) that would be about the size of an urban Target and that would be a game changer for downtown KC. You will have some bare walls along much of the block but gain a nice retail store with a few possible smaller exterior stores facing out to the sidewalk around the garage. Typically the actual target stores are on the second level in developments like this with the garage ringed with smaller retail on the first and then garage below ground for the office tower.

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Re: 13th and Grand tower

Postby normalthings » Sun May 20, 2018 9:04 am

The description is outdated I think.

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Re: 13th and Grand tower

Postby GRID » Sun May 20, 2018 4:45 pm

ldai_phs wrote:The description is outdated I think.


I just don't get it. This would probably be a 200 million dollar development and they can't even get the basic description of the project on their website right. They are treating this project like a total pipe dream that they know will never happen. Hard to take it seriously.

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Re: 13th and Grand tower

Postby WoodDraw » Sun May 20, 2018 7:19 pm

GRID wrote:
ldai_phs wrote:The description is outdated I think.


I just don't get it. This would probably be a 200 million dollar development and they can't even get the basic description of the project on their website right. They are treating this project like a total pipe dream that they know will never happen. Hard to take it seriously.


If it looks like a duck, swims like a duck, and quacks like a duck...

They can't even get the number of floors right.

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Re: 13th and Grand tower

Postby WoodDraw » Sun May 20, 2018 11:34 pm

I will say that the value of this property may be getting too high to keep as parking though. But that's just speculation from me. I bet the ambassador and UMB would both rent parking from them, and they could build spec or hotel on top. City would probably kick in to keep Grand moving.

I'm sure it's on the top of their list to develop, I just have no faith they'll do it. I keep thinking a Hyatt, but I don't know where the finance would come from.

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Re: 13th and Grand tower

Postby normalthings » Mon May 21, 2018 12:32 pm

WoodDraw wrote:I will say that the value of this property may be getting too high to keep as parking though. But that's just speculation from me. I bet the ambassador and UMB would both rent parking from them, and they could build spec or hotel on top. City would probably kick in to keep Grand moving.

I'm sure it's on the top of their list to develop, I just have no faith they'll do it. I keep thinking a Hyatt, but I don't know where the finance would come from.

Hopefully Hyatt begins approaching outside developers and banks to build this for them.

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Re: 13th and Grand tower

Postby flyingember » Mon May 21, 2018 12:51 pm

WoodDraw wrote:I will say that the value of this property may be getting too high to keep as parking though. But that's just speculation from me. I bet the ambassador and UMB would both rent parking from them, and they could build spec or hotel on top. City would probably kick in to keep Grand moving.

I'm sure it's on the top of their list to develop, I just have no faith they'll do it. I keep thinking a Hyatt, but I don't know where the finance would come from.


They own a 129 spots on the west half.
looks like their annual property taxes are about $25k

Filling each spot just once per day, 100 days of the year at $5 per time is $64500.
Minimum wage for two workers full time would be $32656.

This lot is a cash cow. They're making a fortune off event rates. Their taxes will need to go up 4-5x before it even begins to get close to unprofitable as a parking lot.

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Re: 13th and Grand tower

Postby Highlander » Mon May 28, 2018 7:27 pm

WIth the Great Plains - Westar merger looking like it will happen, it sounds like KC will finally be the benefactor of a merger. In terms of people moving downtown, the new company has an obligation to keep a certain amount of people in Topeka for 5 years and maintain a "presence" for 10 years. The details were not clear, but I read in the Star there are 500 people in Topeka now and most of those could transfer to KC after 5 years. Seems that addition could very well drive the need for a new building for Westar.

https://www.bizjournals.com/kansascity/ ... ts-to.html

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Re: 13th and Grand tower

Postby shinatoo » Mon May 28, 2018 8:52 pm

That Westar building in Topeka is in sad shape.
Quocunque Jeceris Stabit

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Re: 13th and Grand tower

Postby bobbyhawks » Tue May 29, 2018 12:59 pm

Is there vacancy at One KC Place? KCP&L's current digs are sufficient if they can add a few more floors, but I worry that a desire for more elbow room will inevitably result in a move to the burbs and/or a request for a tax deal. They would be a candidate for a single purpose building/campus in a new East loop development.

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Re: 13th and Grand tower

Postby normalthings » Tue May 29, 2018 11:10 pm

bobbyhawks wrote:Is there vacancy at One KC Place? KCP&L's current digs are sufficient if they can add a few more floors, but I worry that a desire for more elbow room will inevitably result in a move to the burbs and/or a request for a tax deal. They would be a candidate for a single purpose building/campus in a new East loop development.

They wanted their own tower at one point but where not offered the types of incentives that they wanted.

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Re: 13th and Grand tower

Postby FangKC » Wed May 30, 2018 4:00 am

I recall that Executive Hills wanted to demolish the Mainstreet Theater (pre-Power & Light District) and use that block for the purposes of building KCP&L a new building and parking garage.

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Re: 13th and Grand tower

Postby grecobs » Thu May 31, 2018 10:11 am

Not to be a hater but I think it's so funny that a 10-15 story building is considered a tower.

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Re: 13th and Grand tower

Postby GRID » Thu May 31, 2018 10:25 am

grecobs wrote:Not to be a hater but I think it's so funny that a 10-15 story building is considered a tower.


KC press calls everything a tower. Even 4-7 stories. 6 story office tower proposed for Lenexa or Plaza. It always cracks me up. 10-15 doesn't bother me too much though.

This project is annoying though. It feels so "pie in the sky" amateurish. Copaken must have paid close to $500 to have those renderings created!

That block is probably downtown KC's best spot for a new signature tower. To put anything less than 500,000 sq ft and 25-35 stories there would be a waste. The Muehlebach project that came out of nowhere has far more thought put into it. And a rendering that wasn't done by a CAD intern.

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Re: 13th and Grand tower

Postby KCTOGA » Thu May 31, 2018 10:43 am

GRID wrote:
grecobs wrote:Not to be a hater but I think it's so funny that a 10-15 story building is considered a tower.


KC press calls everything a tower. Even 4-7 stories. 6 story office tower proposed for Lenexa or Plaza. It always cracks me up. 10-15 doesn't bother me too much though.

This project is annoying though. It feels so "pie in the sky" amateurish. Copaken must have paid close to $500 to have those renderings created!

That block is probably downtown KC's best spot for a new signature tower. To put anything less than 500,000 sq ft and 25-35 stories there would be a waste. The Muehlebach project that came out of nowhere has far more thought put into it. And a rendering that wasn't done by a CAD intern.

It is THE premier spot for a signature tower, agreed. This locale is begging for a mixed use appt,office,hotel tower at minimum 35 stories. There must be a developer somewhere who is willing to take a small risk on this.

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Re: 13th and Grand tower

Postby flyingember » Thu May 31, 2018 11:04 am

Vague use of term isn't unique to KC.

Here's a 250 ft building in NYC being called a tower.
https://www.6sqft.com/new-renderings-fo ... lyn-macys/

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Re: 13th and Grand tower

Postby grecobs » Thu May 31, 2018 11:19 am

flyingember wrote:Vague use of term isn't unique to KC.

Here's a 250 ft building in NYC being called a tower.
https://www.6sqft.com/new-renderings-fo ... lyn-macys/


To be fair...250 feet would be ~20-25 stories in a traditional build out.

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Re: 13th and Grand tower

Postby GRID » Thu May 31, 2018 11:24 am

flyingember wrote:Vague use of term isn't unique to KC.

Here's a 250 ft building in NYC being called a tower.
https://www.6sqft.com/new-renderings-fo ... lyn-macys/


Didn't mean it was a KC only thing. I just read about KC development more than any other place. I don't typically ready about 7 story buildings in any other city. One thing about KC press (may not be just a kc thing either) is how everything is called "mixed use" when there is really nothing mixed use about the development. Apartments next to a strip mall is not mixed use.

KCTOGA wrote:
It is THE premier spot for a signature tower, agreed. This locale is begging for a mixed use appt,office,hotel tower at minimum 35 stories. There must be a developer somewhere who is willing to take a small risk on this.


There really is not a better location in the city for large tower than that spot. It's sad it's a freaking parking lot that might be a small office building in ten years. I honestly don't see Copaken ever doing anything productive with it. Somebody else needs to come in and buy the land and develop it, but KC has not quite reached the point of having major national developers come in and do towers (residential, hotel or office) and there is no corporate presence downtown to help push things along.

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Re: 13th and Grand tower

Postby KCLover » Thu May 31, 2018 4:42 pm

GRID wrote:There really is not a better location in the city for large tower than that spot. It's sad it's a freaking parking lot that might be a small office building in ten years. I honestly don't see Copaken ever doing anything productive with it. Somebody else needs to come in and buy the land and develop it, but KC has not quite reached the point of having major national developers come in and do towers (residential, hotel or office) and there is no corporate presence downtown to help push things along.


As long as we keep losing downtown corporate businesses to Overland Park, there won't be anyone willing to build a spec 35 story building in KC. The only way something like that happens is with a large tenant taking up multi-floors. I guess there is the weird off-chance it could be half hotel, half office with a City Target on the ground floor, but that's probably a pipedream.

You can try the build it and they will come mentality and you might pluck some businesses out of 1KC Place, etc that want trendy new office space, but then that empties existing buildings and creates another issue at which nobody wins.

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Re: 13th and Grand tower

Postby GRID » Thu May 31, 2018 4:51 pm

KCLover wrote:
GRID wrote:There really is not a better location in the city for large tower than that spot. It's sad it's a freaking parking lot that might be a small office building in ten years. I honestly don't see Copaken ever doing anything productive with it. Somebody else needs to come in and buy the land and develop it, but KC has not quite reached the point of having major national developers come in and do towers (residential, hotel or office) and there is no corporate presence downtown to help push things along.


As long as we keep losing downtown corporate businesses to Overland Park, there won't be anyone willing to build a spec 35 story building in KC. The only way something like that happens is with a large tenant taking up multi-floors. I guess there is the weird off-chance it could be half hotel, half office with a City Target on the ground floor, but that's probably a pipedream.

You can try the build it and they will come mentality and you might pluck some businesses out of 1KC Place, etc that want trendy new office space, but then that empties existing buildings and creates another issue at which nobody wins.


Actually, I think a spec tower (over 500,000 sq ft) would do very well in downtown KC. With a move in ready tower of modern class A space in a location like that, I think it would fill up fast and it would likely be from companies from Johnson County. In the next few years, I think there will be a lof of companies in Kansas itching to get back downtown, but KC needs a developer with enough balls to put up a large spec tower. That's the problem right now.

The other big problem is the Sprint Campus. If they pull what's left out of the Sprint Campus and sublease another 1-2 millions sq ft of furnished space at 1/2 to 3/4 the going rate for office space, companies are going to continue to choose that option even if they would like to go downtown which could delay downtown getting a large office building for another ten years. Even with the Sprint campus issue, I think Downtown could fill a new large spec building, it would take a few years, but they would eventually get it pretty leased up.


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