OFFICIAL - Loews Convention Hotel (formerly Hyatt)

[mean]

What a idiot you are for a knowledgeable person!!  You speak in generalities as if you have an agenda. Personally I would like to see KC succeed for a change without encumberances from a negative blowhard like you who continue to badger anyone who has ambition. I have seen cities like Mobile, AL and Nashville, TN and Atlanta, etc, etc, etc, grow despite anti growth idots like you who are very afraid to spend a dime to make a dollar.  You sir are full of it.  I have read your posts and you are always very persuasive but very vague!!  You cite examples but like your latest post they are very limited.  Basically you are just imposing your position again and personally, I am sick of you holding back KC.  You are personally responsible.

[KC-wildcat]

...but who is to say if the convention would not have come to KC with or without the new hotel.

Skills left because of inadequate hotel rooms.  So, uh, I guess a Skills representative would have something to say about the need for a bigger hotel. 

Mark Henneberger, Vice President of Shows/Events for Wal-Mart said, "If you had a new 1,000-room hotel next to the convention center, we probably wouldn't be having this conversation [about leaving Kansas City]."


Cue the nonsensical, rambling, general reply from AKP.


Btw, Wal-Mart and Skills were our two biggest conventions. 

[aknowledgeableperson]

Skills left because of inadequate hotel rooms.  So, uh, I guess a Skills representative would have something to say about the need for a bigger hotel.

Mark Henneberger, Vice President of Shows/Events for Wal-Mart said, "If you had a new 1,000-room hotel next to the convention center, we probably wouldn't be having this conversation [about leaving Kansas City]."


Cue the nonsensical, rambling, general reply from AKP.
 

Walmart was going to leave anyway in a few years (they just decided to leave early) so it is interesting that you quoted only part of his talk.  And Skills was not going to renew their agreement because of the lack of space, with or without hotel rooms.

Yes, both left because of hotel rooms but that is not the only reason nor was the hotel rooms the main reason.  Even back in 2003 when I was still working at the CC both of those events were hindered because of the limited floor space, meeting room space, and so on of the convention center complex and used space at the American Royal Complex which spread out their events.  We knew then it was a matter of time before losing those events just because of their space needs.  And the latest addition of the Ballroom would not make a difference.

So if you call that a "nonsensical, rambling, general reply" go ahead but your beliefs on this subject does not change reality.  It does show your limited knowledge on the subject though.

[aknowledgeableperson]

You are personally responsible.

Thank you.  Thank you.  Thank you.  I had no idea I held that much power in my hands.

Your post shows that you really do not know what has gone on and what goes on in KCMO.  It does show that you like to take the easy way out and just put a label on something and like to over-simplify.

To sum it up, I will throw it back at you.  You are the blowhard and are the one full of it.

[LenexatoKCMO]

Yes, both left because of hotel rooms but that is not the only reason nor was the hotel rooms the main reason.  Even back in 2003 when I was still working at the CC both of those events were hindered because of the limited floor space, meeting room space, and so on of the convention center complex and used space at the American Royal Complex which spread out their events.  We knew then it was a matter of time before losing those events just because of their space needs.  And the latest addition of the Ballroom would not make a difference.

So you seem to be assuming that construction of 1000+ room convention hotel would likely ommit the inclusion of a substantial ammount of additional meeting and ball room/exhibit space?  I would have swore that the first proposal we saw just recently included several floors worth of additional capacity in these areas.

[aknowledgeableperson]

That would be at the hotel.  At the same time additional space is needed at the convention center, especially exhibit floor space attached to the current space.

[Slappy the Wang]

The biggest issue will be financing this beast.  For the past decade similar facilities have been erected with municipalities financing/owning the lion's share of the debt/risk.  KC is in no condition to bite this off.  It's a great idea, but I hope some our resident shutterbugs are on-site when it sinks into the ancient sewer system it will rest upon.

[LenexatoKCMO]

That would be at the hotel.  At the same time additional space is needed at the convention center, especially exhibit floor space attached to the current space.

I just don't buy that this is anywhere near the priority the hotel rooms are.  We have double the square footage of almost every city in our weight class - http://www.cvent.com/destination-guide/ ... DQoduVswAg

We are never going to compete with the likes of Orlando, Chicago, or LV but there is absolutlely no reason why we should be loosing out to cities like Louisville (less than half the sq footage), pittsburgh, etc.  Looking at this list, it would appear pretty clear that if we are loosing our ass to other second tier cities, sq footage isn't the reason.

[GRID]

I just don't buy that this is anywhere near the priority the hotel rooms are.  We have double the square footage of almost every city in our weight class - http://www.cvent.com/destination-guide/ ... DQoduVswAg

We are never going to compete with the likes of Orlando, Chicago, or LV but there is absolutlely no reason why we should be loosing out to cities like Louisville (less than half the sq footage), pittsburgh, etc.  Looking at this list, it would appear pretty clear that if we are loosing our ass to other second tier cities, sq footage isn't the reason.

Bingo.

KC could use additional space, but it's not even close to a priority.  Another expansion of Barlte would probably cost 100 million, about 1/3 of what a new hotel would cost too.

I would guess that when it comes to Downtown hotel rooms, KC doesn't even compete with places like Des Moines, Tulsa or Omaha.

And with our crappy transit system, the hotels in Crown Center and the Plaza may as well be in the Northland.

[kcjak]

I don't think the list tells the whole story: Pittsburgh's center just opened in 2003 and can cater to a larger East Coast population and Louisville's number doesn't include the massive Expo Center that includes Freedom Hall and is adjacent to Six Flags - it's only for the downtown convention facility.

I wonder if one of KC's problems lies with the people who market and book the facilities?

Anyway, back to the hotel proposal - even though the P&L project is already ahead of any other proposal, there will other sites identified before anything is done.  While the P&L location would include building on a surface lot, be connected to the convention facilities, next to the P&L district AND renovate an iconic building, I think the council will ultimately be more about what's cheapest and not what's best.

[LenexatoKCMO]

For shits and giggles, I did a quick look through all of the major US convention centers using the resource above to test this additional sq footage theory AKP has been moaning about as being as big an issue for KC conventions.  This has never jived with me as I have spent a lot of time at out of town trade shows and Bartle often seems quite a bit bigger than what you encounter elsewhere so I did some fact checking.

Here are the cities that have facilities with significantlly more sq footage than Bartle:  Huston, Dallas, Las Vegas, New Orleans, Chicago, Atlanta, Orlando, San Francisco, and Phoenix.  I think it is safe to say that we will never compete directly with any of these; they have sq footage in the millions.

There are a small handful of cities that have facilities with sq. footage in the 10-25% bigger than ours range - Boston, St. Louis, Denver, San Diego, New York

Most interesting is the list of cities that have pretty similar or substantially smaller facilities - some notables from the list: Los Angeles, DC, Miami, Honolulu, Indianapolis, Charlotte, Atlantic City, Baltimore, Cincinatti, Cleveland, Portland, Pittsburgh, Philadelphia, Nashville, San Antonio, Salt Lake, Seattle, Milwaukee, Minneapolis - more often than not we have upwards of double the sq footage in these cities' facilities.  

AKP who in the hell are you thinking we need to compete with by adding sq footage to bartle?  Orlando?  Las Vegas?

[LenexatoKCMO]

I don't think the list tells the whole story: Pittsburgh's center just opened in 2003 and can cater to a larger East Coast population and Louisville's number doesn't include the massive Expo Center that includes Freedom Hall and is adjacent to Six Flags - it's only for the downtown convention facility.

If you count Freedom Hall - you have to count Sprint Center too.  All cities have various other things scattered about - this is merely a comparison of each city's primary convention facility - which in Lousiville is less than half the size of Bartle. 

[Pork Chop]

I just don't buy that this is anywhere near the priority the hotel rooms are.  We have double the square footage of almost every city in our weight class - http://www.cvent.com/destination-guide/ ... DQoduVswAg

We are never going to compete with the likes of Orlando, Chicago, or LV but there is absolutlely no reason why we should be loosing out to cities like Louisville (less than half the sq footage), pittsburgh, etc.  Looking at this list, it would appear pretty clear that if we are loosing our ass to other second tier cities, sq footage isn't the reason.

I believe AKP is speaking of contiguous space, which Bartle Hall itself has 388,800 square feet. Here's some other facts...

another 55,000 square feet of additional space on two levels, 45 state of the art meeting rooms, a 46,484 square foot Grand Ballroom, 2,400-seat fine arts theater, and a renovated arena that can seat more than 10,700 people.

http://www.kcmo.org/cec.nsf/web/facilityfacts

I am not sure how much contiguous other cities that we compete with have or how much more we need in the future to remain competitive.

[LenexatoKCMO]

I believe AKP is speaking of contiguous space, which Bartle Hall itself has 388,800 square feet. Here's some other facts...
http://www.kcmo.org/cec.nsf/web/facilityfacts

I am not sure how much contiguous other cities that we compete with have or how much more we need in the future to remain competitive.

Bartle's space is much more contiguous than most cities - Few cities have one giant hall like that; it is much more typical for it to be broken into at least a couple halls.  The big mega ones on the list are probably the most disjointed.  Vegas is a confusing mess.  In Orlando you have to walk on a long open air walkway accroos the swamp to get between their two main halls. 

[moderne]

The Expo Center and Freedom Hall in Louisville have about the same finishes as the Kemper/American Royal complex.  The rinky dink Six Flags next door makes Worlds of Fun seem like an Orlando theme park in comparison.  Both of these are out on the ring interstate, which is closer in than 435 in KC, sort of as if 435 was out at 75th Street.

[KC-wildcat]

The Expo Center and Freedom Hall in Louisville have about the same finishes as the Kemper/American Royal complex. 

Btw, Louisville just built a new state of the art 23K seat stadium downtown.  Designed by Populous.  I've seen the interiors and the space is insane.

[aknowledgeableperson]

Click on the KCCC site on the list and you will get this detail.

The eight-square-block convention and entertainment facilities can accommodate every need with 388,800 square feet of column-free contiguous exhibit, 48 state-of-the-art meeting rooms, a 2400-seat renovated Music Hall, a 10,700 renovated seat arena and over 100,0000 square feet of unique outdoor festival and reception space. In April of 2007, the Kansas City Convention Center unveiled one of the ten largest convention center ballrooms in the nation. The new 46,484-square-foot ballroom incorporates state-of-the-art technology and features a controllable day-lighting system.

So take out the "over 100,000 square feet of unique outdoor festival and reception space" and KC drops down to the size of Indianapolis and Columbus (and note the previously mentioned space is rarely used by conventions). Convention and other users of Bartle Hall very, very seldom use the "2400-seat renovated Music Hall", and the "10,700 renovated seat arena" so if the sq ft of those facilities is included 610,000 sq ft number then the sq ft typically used by conventions drops even more.

If you count Freedom Hall - you have to count Sprint Center too.

Sprint Center is out.  Freedom Hall is a connected part of the Kentucky Expo Center complex, not something located blocks away, like the Sprint Center, the SC is not even part of the Convention Center complex.

AKP who in the hell are you thinking we need to compete with by adding sq footage to bartle?  Orlando?  Las Vegas?

Nope, no way with those cities.  But adding square footage puts the KCCC more in league with cities like San Antonio, Wash DC and Salt Lake City.



If you go through the history of the improvements to the city's convention facilities you will find many promises made but not completely fulfilled.  Whether it was the Barney Allis Plaza Hotel, the initial Bartle Hall expansion over the highway, building the Marriott, building the Conference Center, building the new Ballroom, even the P&L, the promise made was this is what the city needed.  Well, to a certain extent they were what the city needed but in reality the city needed much more.  For those who think that a 1,000 room convention hotel will solve the city's convention problems are not totally aware of this city's shortcomings in the convention and tradeshow business.

So go ahead and moan, groan, and cry about the need of this hotel.  If the city goes ahead and builds it there will be something else that will pop up that the city needs to keep up with the Joneses and the taxpayers will be digging deeper into their pockets for the next big ticket item.


Food for thought:

I would guess that when it comes to Downtown hotel rooms, KC doesn't even compete with places like Des Moines, Tulsa or Omaha.

I don't know if the above is true but if it is true the questions I would have is how do those cities (or other cities close in size or smaller than KCMO but have more downtown hotel rooms) support their large number of downtown hotel rooms?  In other words, what do those cities have that KCMO does not have?  And if KCMO does not have it then how do people expect the city to support the proposed number of rooms?

[LenexatoKCMO]

Nope, no way with those cities.  But adding square footage puts the KCCC more in league with cities like San Antonio, Wash DC and Salt Lake City.

According to the neutral source we have over a half million more sq feet than San Antonio and are within a few percent of DC and SLC.  So once again, who do we really need more sq ft to compete with?

[kcjak]

So go ahead and moan, groan, and cry about the need of this hotel.  If the city goes ahead and builds it there will be something else that will pop up that the city needs to keep up with the Joneses and the taxpayers will be digging deeper into their pockets for the next big ticket item.

That's what cities (and businesses and homeowners and...) do - identify a need, fill it and then move on to the next thing.  Your comment is like saying 'now that downtown has Cosentino's, the residents are going to want something else like storm drainage, a Target, an office store, etc.'  Meanwhile, the tax-supported grocery store is bringing in people to shop who otherwise would be spending money in other parts of town or in other cities, and likely new residents spending their money in the district.

I just don't get the idea that a city shouldn't spend money to make money or even supply a basic need.  It's not keeping up with the Joneses, it's staying relevant and competitive with our peers so we don't have to spend hundreds of millions of taxpayer dollars to move from the 1970s to the 2000s like we've been doing.  I don't agree with spending $XXX millions of taxpayer money for a new hotel, but I think we DO need a 1,000+ room convention HQ with the correct public/private financing.  And I'm willing to give my share.

[Slappy the Wang]

We all love KC, but can we take a neutral step back and look at what our competition has to offer that we don't....a wide variety of experiences.  Some have mountains, beaches, desert scapes, indiginous foods, unique and famous neighborhoods, infamous histories of wild parties, scenic views and movie sets.  Again, we love KC, but realistically, all we really have to offer is a pseudo urban feel which is laughable when some of our competitors offer, dare I say, real urban experiences.  Conventions rarely look for space as their primary driver, but rather a location that potential attendees WANT to go.  When conventions host high attendance they're deemed a $ucce$$.  What nationally recognized facet of KC is intriguing to a potential convention-goer from non-midwest states?

I'd say our first step in attracting such events to KC would be to get the CVB moving in an aggressive direction...have Colin Powell, Schwartzkopff or some other military standout pimp the War Memorial, get Bill Cosby advertising the Jazz Museum and Negro Leagues Baseball Museum (he is a known fan of both jazz and the league), etc.  Don't we have any celebs or notables who like this place enough to cast a national image?

Space is important, but the national perception of KC is pretty bland.  We DO need more hotel rooms to accommodate such events, but we have to give the prospective conventioneers a reason to want to fill the rooms.