Amenities missing from downtown

Issues concerning Downtown as described by the Downtown Council. River to 31st Street, I-35 to Bruce R. Watkins.
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TheBigChuckbowski
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Re: Amenities missing from downtown

Post by TheBigChuckbowski »

:lol:
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chaglang
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Re: Amenities missing from downtown

Post by chaglang »

flyingember wrote:
knucklehead wrote:I wonder if putting less emphasis on dredging for barges and channelization would make the river more or less friendly for boaters.

In other words, is part of the current problem the fact that the river isn't managed to promote recreation?
in a manner of speaking. the river is naturally wide, shallow and full of obstacles. it was so variable in depth that one had to constantly find the depth before channelization.

more natural with less depth would result in more flow. if you build dams and locks to slow it down that means at the current size that it backs up somewhere and forms a lake. to go more natural wider you have to figure out where to widen the channel

here's an old map showing what the river used to be in the 1870s and how much space it took up.

http://www.geospectra.net/lewis_cl/kans ... hart2s.gif
Off topic, but for those who enjoy rivers and maps:
http://mapsandcharts.tumblr.com/post/48 ... pialluvial
aknowledgeableperson
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Re: Amenities missing from downtown

Post by aknowledgeableperson »

GRID wrote:I always thought it was because the MO river is too dangerous (fast moving etc). If it's not a problem then why does almost nobody do it.
From the comments of the old riverboat captain/owner who had the last riverboat cruise locally that would be correct. For a kayaker who knows what they are doing it might be a good challenge, for an amateur good luck
loftguy
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Re: Amenities missing from downtown

Post by loftguy »

chaglang wrote: Off topic, but for those who enjoy rivers and maps:
http://mapsandcharts.tumblr.com/post/48 ... pialluvial
Beautiful and intriguing. Thanks Chaglang.
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Highlander
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Re: Amenities missing from downtown

Post by Highlander »

chingon wrote:Wait, I got it! The Missouri is too polluted, unlike the pristine waters of the Ohio, the Monangahela and the Allegheny...or the Columbia and Willamette, for that matter.

Or whatever. All that matters is that:
IT CAN BE DONE...we love our cars too much, our rivers are too spread out, our city government is too incompetent, our dating scene is too bad!

PS - GRID, for as much wailing as you do about tourists in "KU crap", your kid is in Mizzou stuff every time you post a picture of him on the internet...
The difference between the Monangahela and the Allegheny and the Missouri is that just downstream of Pittsburgh, the Ohio goes through a series of locks and dams creating what is essentially a lake alongside downtown Pittsburgh. The Missouri has been straighted considerably and has a significantly strong current with a large amount of debris. I doubt if many are going to put their kids out on the Missouri alone in a kayak even with a flotation device.

The requirement to create the Pittsburgh environment would be small dams downstream of KC (and they would require locks to accommodate barge traffic). Some kind of weir to control debris upstream would help too. That said, there is no reason why we can't have a significantly better environment at riverside as Pittsburgh and many other cities do have.
flyingember
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Re: Amenities missing from downtown

Post by flyingember »

this is the same reason there's a lot of recreation boats upstream of St. Louis, they're above the first lock.
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Highlander
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Re: Amenities missing from downtown

Post by Highlander »

flyingember wrote:this is the same reason there's a lot of recreation boats upstream of St. Louis, they're above the first lock.
Another issue with the Missouri is illustrated in the map for which Chaglag posted a link:

http://mapsandcharts.tumblr.com/post/48 ... pialluvial

While that is the Mississippi, the same straightening through time has occured with the Missouri. If a valley is dropping at a modest gradient at 5' per mile, the river can decrease the gradient by meandering (increasing its length relative to drop). If the river is forced to flow on a straighter course, the gradient and, hence, the speed of the current is artifically increased. Such issues pose problems boating on the Missouri. It's not that people with modest skills cannot negotiate it but it is absolutely a riskier endeavor.
pash
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Re: Amenities missing from downtown

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IraGlacialis
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Re: Amenities missing from downtown

Post by IraGlacialis »

Highlander wrote: The requirement to create the Pittsburgh environment would be small dams downstream of KC (and they would require locks to accommodate barge traffic). Some kind of weir to control debris upstream would help too. That said, there is no reason why we can't have a significantly better environment at riverside as Pittsburgh and many other cities do have.
I'd personally advocate strongly against putting dams on the stretch of the Missouri. The ecosystem there has been screwed enough as it is, so idea of putting a dam in just to make the river enjoyable is a pretty flimsy reason.

A better thing to do, and one that would be beneficial in the long term, is to widen the river (stating, at very least, at the northern edge of Leavenworth). The river itself won't be widened per say, but there would be an ton of side channels built along the floodplain. These channels would be of varying size, turn for increased length, and constantly diverge/converge with the river and themselves; this effectively turns that stretch into a braided river and the floodplain into an alluvial plain. With some negotiation, you could even have some going through Fairfax and NKC. On top of this, a good chunk (if not all) of that land on the floodplain should be converted to marshland; of course with compensation given to farmers.
Several partial barriers (extending 3/5ths or less of the width) installed alternately would assist with debris and, at certain points, would encourage flow into the side channels. If it is power that we want, they could possibly be installed in those barriers; in any case, they should be non-dam hydroelectric plants.

This, more or less, would end up converting that stretch of the Missouri back to a controlled version of its former self. Increased surface area through the side channels mean decreased flow overall, which not only would make the river more assessable but would help with flood mitigation. Putting wetlands back in would help to decrease the flow even more and filter a lot of pollution out. The added bonus is that with these wetlands, recreational opportunities for the metro jump significantly and makes the city appear progressive.
Even the side channels can end up being recreational, with, among other stuff, possible side pools of said channels encouraging the implementation of beaches.
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Highlander
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Re: Amenities missing from downtown

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double
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Highlander
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Re: Amenities missing from downtown

Post by Highlander »

Braided streams as you describe are inconsistent and mutually exclusive with a river as managed as the Missouri. The biggest problem with letting the river return to a braided environment is that flood control features upstream prohibit the primary natural creator of a braided environment - flood events and flood plain destruction.

I do not think a natural riverine environment on the Missouri, which is impossible to achieve given the developed state of its drainage basin, would be much of a draw for humans anyway. A few maybe but nothing on a significant scale. It's an urban environment, lets acknowledge that and do something with our riverfront that respects that reality - the river will never again be in the state Lewis and Clark found it and it's probably never going to be something like Pittsburgh has either.

In answer to Pash - I'd be for putting small dams in to create recreational opportunities but dams capable of creating hydroelectricity and especially flood control, would require a significant rise in the water level and threaten some of the riverside industry in the area. Any dam would require locks if you wanted to continue barge traffic. Rivers are systems in a state of quasi equilibrium, any change anywhere has a rather significant impact elsewhere.
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smh
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Re: Amenities missing from downtown

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Steering back towards topic: I'd like to have more/better/different breakfast options downtown. And additional retail.
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Re: Amenities missing from downtown

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Gondolas. Never seam to be enough Gondolas.
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Re: Amenities missing from downtown

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IraGlacialis
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Re: Amenities missing from downtown

Post by IraGlacialis »

Highlander wrote:Braided streams as you describe are inconsistent and mutually exclusive with a river as managed as the Missouri. The biggest problem with letting the river return to a braided environment is that flood control features upstream prohibit the primary natural creator of a braided environment - flood events and flood plain destruction.

I do not think a natural riverine environment on the Missouri, which is impossible to achieve given the developed state of its drainage basin, would be much of a draw for humans anyway. A few maybe but nothing on a significant scale. It's an urban environment, lets acknowledge that and do something with our riverfront that respects that reality - the river will never again be in the state Lewis and Clark found it and it's probably never going to be something like Pittsburgh has either.
Well the idea is not to have naturally-formed braided streams but man-made canals (which, of course, would not shift in the same manner as in a natural alluvial plain) that would have the same result of a braided stream: flow redistribution and decreased flow overall.
And while restored wetlands along a stretch of the Missouri may not be a complete draw for people, besides fishermen, bird watchers, and duck hunters, the sheer benefit they bring in general is very obvious.

Of course the DT riverfront itself wouldn't have these features, but said upstream development would help increase the overall desirability of developing on it.
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warwickland
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Re: Amenities missing from downtown

Post by warwickland »

let the missouri river looooooooose, i say. i rarely, if ever see a barge on the missouri at the... blanchette, page ave, boone, I-70 central missouri bridge (whatever that is called) and around KC. EVAR. i see more fucking barges on the illinois river. let the river loose and see what happens.
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Re: Amenities missing from downtown

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From a 2010 article:
Long-haul commercial tonnage on the river — commodities such as fertilizer and asphalt pushed upstream, grain harvests floated downstream — peaked in 1977 at 3.3 million tons. In 2009, the first year of recovery after eight years of drought, only 245,000 tons of cargo traveled the Missouri. That's just 7 percent of the high point. The 175 tons moved on the Missouri in 2008 were the fewest since 1949.

The value of that cargo sank just as surely. The high point came at $941 million in 1977, and the value tumbled below $100 million in the last two years.
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knucklehead
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Re: Amenities missing from downtown

Post by knucklehead »

This Mississippi River is a series of lakes in Wisconsin, that are popular spots for boating and fishing.

If the Mississippi can be used for recreation there is no reason the Missouri can't.

What I don't understand is were are these supposedly super powerful environmental organizations. You would think if they are that powerful they could defeat a small barge industry and a few thousand farmers that are scared of change. (sarcasm alert)
aknowledgeableperson
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Re: Amenities missing from downtown

Post by aknowledgeableperson »

It is used for recreation. But areas of the river that can be used for recreation are limited. Most of the river in the KC area is not suitable for general recreation for many reasons. The MO River has been altered so much during the years, via rechannelization, dikes, levees,etc, it would take decades to return it to a "normal" river. Here is one example of a change. From wiki:
Although the bridges cross over the Missouri River, they do not cross the county line. When the Missouri River was rerouted in 1949, it cut across the northern part of Jackson County, Missouri. This left part of the county north of the river, which is known as River Bend. The original Liberty Bend Bridge was located about two miles to the north, which then crossed over into Clay County, Missouri.
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Re: Amenities missing from downtown

Post by flyingember »

IraGlacialis wrote: Well the idea is not to have naturally-formed braided streams but man-made canals (which, of course, would not shift in the same manner as in a natural alluvial plain) that would have the same result of a braided stream: flow redistribution and decreased flow overall.
And while restored wetlands along a stretch of the Missouri may not be a complete draw for people, besides fishermen, bird watchers, and duck hunters, the sheer benefit they bring in general is very obvious.

Of course the DT riverfront itself wouldn't have these features, but said upstream development would help increase the overall desirability of developing on it.
how do you do this without encroaching on farmland? the farm lobby will kill this plan in the first 15 seconds. remember that bottom land is where a huge percentage of farming happens in this country.

you can not lessen the flow in the same width.
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