City Center Square for sale

Issues concerning Downtown as described by the Downtown Council. River to 31st Street, I-35 to Bruce R. Watkins.
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KCPowercat
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Re: City Center Square for sale

Post by KCPowercat » Fri Nov 02, 2012 10:28 am

CCS sells again and talk of lack of parking comes up as a concern.

Business journal article hints at a possibility of residential conversion.

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Re: City Center Square for sale

Post by DaveKCMO » Fri Nov 02, 2012 10:55 am

at only 49% occupancy and "not enough parking", it seems like the obvious choice. of course, who would want to live above that food court? would need to transition to higher end retail.

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Re: City Center Square for sale

Post by bobbyhawks » Fri Nov 02, 2012 11:06 am

KCPowercat wrote:CCS sells again and talk of lack of parking comes up as a concern.

Business journal article hints at a possibility of residential conversion.
Google Entertainment HQ &&&

Top floor residential would be pretty cool in that building as well. I also think the building would be much better served if it were to turn the guts of the food court inside out. It is pretty depressing as is, and it has strikes against it in that it is not accessible in the evening and on the weekends. The bottom two floors have potential to be a decent retail area if there was better visibility from the outside, if the interior was open for longer, and if the restaurants could all have exterior entrances to maintain whatever hours they desire. There is a cool patio area that could be exploited by the right restaurant as well. Residential or partial residential would certainly alleviate some of the parking issue, but the benefit of having residential along the streetcar line would also be a pretty big selling point for couples who don't need multiple vehicles.

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Re: City Center Square for sale

Post by KCPowercat » Fri Nov 02, 2012 11:19 am

DaveKCMO wrote:at only 49% occupancy and "not enough parking", it seems like the obvious choice. of course, who would want to live above that food court? would need to transition to higher end retail.
Be a perfect gym. That food court is depressing.

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Re: City Center Square for sale

Post by Volker Dad » Fri Nov 02, 2012 11:24 am

KCPowercat wrote:
DaveKCMO wrote:at only 49% occupancy and "not enough parking", it seems like the obvious choice. of course, who would want to live above that food court? would need to transition to higher end retail.
Be a perfect gym. That food court is depressing.
It would make a great gym. They should move the dinky gym on the 2nd level to the 1st level and expand it.

Seems like you could make some good restaurant space on the 2nd level where their are offices now. Turn them out to the street if possible have interior atrium space like Axios.

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Re: City Center Square for sale

Post by flyingember » Fri Nov 02, 2012 12:17 pm

Volker Dad wrote:
KCPowercat wrote:
DaveKCMO wrote:at only 49% occupancy and "not enough parking", it seems like the obvious choice. of course, who would want to live above that food court? would need to transition to higher end retail.
Be a perfect gym. That food court is depressing.
It would make a great gym. They should move the dinky gym on the 2nd level to the 1st level and expand it.

Seems like you could make some good restaurant space on the 2nd level where their are offices now. Turn them out to the street if possible have interior atrium space like Axios.
the best street facing space is on the Main St side in the short building + the current Jason's Deli spot.

the only other street facing spot is the bank spot on the 2nd floor

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Re: City Center Square for sale

Post by KCPowercat » Fri Nov 02, 2012 12:26 pm

Starbucks has an outside entrance. Keller could be moved off ground floor. Other ground level could be easily modified.

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Re: City Center Square for sale

Post by bobbyhawks » Fri Nov 02, 2012 1:00 pm

KCPowercat wrote:Starbucks has an outside entrance. Keller could be moved off ground floor. Other ground level could be easily modified.
Starbucks does? I always assumed that it closed when the building locked down. I thought Jason's was the only business with an independent door.

Whatever happens, both the East and West sides of the building can have multiple street-facing retail/restaurant spaces.

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Re: City Center Square for sale

Post by flyingember » Fri Nov 02, 2012 4:06 pm

bobbyhawks wrote: Whatever happens, both the East and West sides of the building can have multiple street-facing retail/restaurant spaces.
your idea is physically impossible except for two exceptions. bring up google street view so you can see why I say this

the east side is Jason's Deli side window, then parking garage entrances, docks and then the NE patio. there's no place to put anything new there and Jason's deli doesn't need a second outside entrance. I bet that window is mostly above floor level too

the west side is a single spot on the SE corner which is above the first floor level/on the back wall of Starbucks, the garage exit, a space halfway between floors and then a dock. I bet the car ramp is behind all the current restaurants and the dock sits right above it and services the food court through the space next to it, and you'd need to keep that around. then there's two sections at the corner of 12th and baltimore on a slope that could have just as good access from the outside by giving them a door right near the current revolving entrance.

so there's zero spots that work functionally from 11th or 12th. the only two workable spots to add outside entrances have better alternatives

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Re: City Center Square for sale

Post by chaglang » Fri Nov 02, 2012 4:23 pm

I think those are the north and south sides you're describing.

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Re: City Center Square for sale

Post by flyingember » Sat Nov 03, 2012 7:43 pm

chaglang wrote:I think those are the north and south sides you're describing.
yes, you're right. I got turned around. but it proves that two sides are horrible choices for street facing regardless. that means one can't turn the current food court around on their current spots.

the east and west aren't much better though

the west side is the barber shop and bank on the 2nd floor. and there's the one tiny section on the SW corner that would work for a small sandwich shop. I'm not sure I'd close a downtown bank but if you moved them you would still have restaurants needing more space since they'd all need their own seating on a new floor

remember, anything you move needs access to trash, you have gas lines, electrical, water, exhaust piping, food delivery, etc. now imagine having to take all that up to the 2nd floor as well. it's a big project for a really small space.

the only plan that might work is using any basement space for a restaurant's functioning and above for dining. and that assumes right below that spot is open space and not unmovable utility space and there's a path to the current docks via the basement

the best spot is where they are

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Re: City Center Square for sale

Post by bobbyhawks » Mon Nov 05, 2012 10:56 am

flyingember wrote:the best spot is where they are
???

Have you ever been inside this building? And who are "they?"

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Re: City Center Square for sale

Post by bobbyhawks » Mon Nov 05, 2012 10:56 am

flyingember wrote:the best spot is where they are
???

Have you ever been inside this building? And who are "they?"

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Re: City Center Square for sale

Post by flyingember » Tue Nov 06, 2012 1:11 pm

bobbyhawks wrote:
flyingember wrote:the best spot is where they are
???

Have you ever been inside this building? And who are "they?"
yes. by they I mean the food court AND anyone in a space you'd move the restaurants to.

it's a major renovation involved.

for this plan to work it would be hugely disruptive to a number of businesses.

the restaurants might as well move to a new building at that point. we've proven with geography the second floor would be worse since there's little ground floor access and much less seating space and I really doubt it would be easier to get food in and trash out from that floor

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Re: City Center Square for sale

Post by chaglang » Tue Nov 06, 2012 1:24 pm

Keeping the current restaurant lineup doesn't seem like a compelling reason not to renovate. To me it's outweighed by the possibility of patio dining on the east side of the building. I know it's expensive, but the current configuration of that ground level doesn't make people want to be in that building for more than they absolutely have to.

If there was a nicer restaurant on the ground floor, they could use that tiny space on the west side level as a spin-off sandwich counter. Getting food upstairs would be a PITA, but if it's a deli-type of menu most of the food could be stored in coolers at that level.

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Re: City Center Square for sale

Post by flyingember » Tue Nov 06, 2012 3:45 pm

chaglang wrote:Keeping the current restaurant lineup doesn't seem like a compelling reason not to renovate. To me it's outweighed by the possibility of patio dining on the east side of the building. I know it's expensive, but the current configuration of that ground level doesn't make people want to be in that building for more than they absolutely have to.

If there was a nicer restaurant on the ground floor, they could use that tiny space on the west side level as a spin-off sandwich counter. Getting food upstairs would be a PITA, but if it's a deli-type of menu most of the food could be stored in coolers at that level.
where do you put the patio? the best spot is taken up by an outdoor patio for Jason's Deli.

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Re: City Center Square for sale

Post by chaglang » Tue Nov 06, 2012 4:22 pm

Main St. side. The continuous run of stairs along that facade is overkill and could easily be modified to provide a patio area. They could also push the storefront windows back into the building and create some additional outdoor space that way.

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Re: City Center Square for sale

Post by DaveKCMO » Wed Nov 07, 2012 12:32 pm

the food court is shit. if this does indeed go condo, who would buy there with that setup? no one. wipe the slate clean and do a mix of food and other retail. downtown can support an indoor mini-mall, especially with residents on top. maybe keep a few lower floors for commercial tenants.

isn't there a street entrance on baltimore at 11th that's somewhat friendly? i think it's all bank offices now.

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Re: City Center Square for sale

Post by FangKC » Wed Nov 07, 2012 2:28 pm

I think residential conversion of many floors would be a good solution for some of the problems that face City Center Square. I agree if would solve some of the parking problems, and the inability to keep the commercial space filled.

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Re: City Center Square for sale

Post by flyingember » Wed Nov 07, 2012 2:58 pm

DaveKCMO wrote:the food court is shit. if this does indeed go condo, who would buy there with that setup? no one. wipe the slate clean and do a mix of food and other retail. downtown can support an indoor mini-mall, especially with residents on top. maybe keep a few lower floors for commercial tenants.

isn't there a street entrance on baltimore at 11th that's somewhat friendly? i think it's all bank offices now.
there's two entrances off Baltimore on the 2nd floor and two off Main. each are corner entrances that angle in towards the center of the building, even the escalator is at an angle.

On 2 I remember the bank, the building's office, the post office (with laughable hours), the business journal and a barber.


I could see the existing food court being replaced with 2 restaurants taking up the current cooking areas in the back and part of the seating but sharing space with a taco bueno and similar on the end closer to Main.

it could be done quickly with little utility work, mainly reconfiguring what's there now.

a good mix of quick and quality reminds me of Chicago. lots of quick food on the ground floor of towers everywhere but inter-spaced with something nicer.

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