OFFICIAL - East9 (former Pickwick Plaza)

[loftguy]

I know I may not be current with rental rates but these seem to be rather high to me so feel free to correect - no harm.

http://www.kansascity.com/business/story/984097-p2.html

The concept calls for leaving the floor plan relatively unchanged but extensively remodeling the smaller apartments in the building to become studio-style apartments with some one-bedroom units. The studios would rent for $700 to $750 per month, with one-bedroom units going for $850 to $900.

Just a fact that it takes a minimum of $1.25+ per square foot monthly to build and operate a market rate apartment development.  The smaller the apartment, the greater psf cost to provide.  The higher the finish and the greater the amenities, again higher psf costs are involved.  The fewer the community incentives, once again results in higher psf.  $1.50 psf for a studio would not surprise me.

And yes, obtaining financing in todays market condition will be interesting, but this developer sounds to have 30 years of experience and hopefully has good lending relationships.

I love the Pickwick and am waaayy behind this concept.  17,000 housing units needed - 289 in this project = 16,711 to go.

[KC-wildcat]

I know I may not be current with rental rates but these seem to be rather high to me so feel free to correect - no harm.

http://www.kansascity.com/business/story/984097-p2.html

The concept calls for leaving the floor plan relatively unchanged but extensively remodeling the smaller apartments in the building to become studio-style apartments with some one-bedroom units. The studios would rent for $700 to $750 per month, with one-bedroom units going for $850 to $900.

Seems a tad high for rental.  But, 909 Walnut charges comparable rates.  $1595 for two bedroom apts @ 909 last time I checked. 

[GRID]

I don't see this project moving forward.  We will still be talking about this in two years if the building has not been torn down by then.

We need to get Drury involved (guy who did the president).  That was probably the most difficult project to date downtown and he has come into a ton of money since winning that lawsuit.

It's going to take some deep pockets to pull this project off and it will be especially difficult in this market with the current people at city hall that probably won't even help get the project state tax credits.

BTW, I don't see how a project like this would do anything but help bring more condos to the P&L.  Downtown is still a mess in many parts of it and the area around the Pickwick is a prime example of that.  Those that would buy a 400k condo on the 28th floor of a modern tower are not going to be looking at the Pickwick, luxury or not.  But they might be more inclined to buy downtown if the Pickwick and other areas of downtown were in better shape.

[PumpkinStalker]

That would be awesome of him to use his lawsuit money to further invest and help dt.  I vote yes.

[loftguy]

I don't see this project moving forward.  We will still be talking about this in two years if the building has not been torn down by then.

We need to get Drury involved (guy who did the president).  That was probably the most difficult project to date downtown and he has come into a ton of money since winning that lawsuit.

It's going to take some deep pockets to pull this project off and it will be especially difficult in this market with the current people at city hall that probably won't even help get the project state tax credits.

BTW, I don't see how a project like this would do anything but help bring more condos to the P&L.  Downtown is still a mess in many parts of it and the area around the Pickwick is a prime example of that.  Those that would buy a 400k condo on the 28th floor of a modern tower are not going to be looking at the Pickwick, luxury or not.  But they might be more inclined to buy downtown if the Pickwick and other areas of downtown were in better shape.

Small correction, the President was saved by Ron Jury.

If this project is market rate, the developer should be able to get state and federal historic tax credits.  They do not require city assistance, support or approval, thank god.  This project SHOULD be provided with tax abatement to incent it's development and insure general affordability for its eventual tenants.

[GRID]

Yea, not sure why I said Drury.

[Midtownkid]

Seems a tad high for rental.  But, 909 Walnut charges comparable rates.  $1595 for two bedroom apts @ 909 last time I checked. 

Ahh, KC prices.  This is what me and my roommate pay for a 10-year rent controlled apartment in suburban MD.  God, I wish apartments in DC proper cost that much.

[KC-wildcat]

BTW, I don't see how a project like this would do anything but help bring more condos to the P&L.  Downtown is still a mess in many parts of it and the area around the Pickwick is a prime example of that.  Those that would buy a 400k condo on the 28th floor of a modern tower are not going to be looking at the Pickwick, luxury or not.  But they might be more inclined to buy downtown if the Pickwick and other areas of downtown were in better shape.

For one, Pickwick is a proposed apartment complex, not condo.  There are many people, myself included, who are looking for rental units DT, not $400K condos.  Currently, there is high demand for, and little supply of, rental units.  At least, this is how I perceive the market in talking to several of my friends who are mid-20s young professionals who have considered or are considering moving Downtown.  I don't believe Pickwickesque developments will have any bearing on new condo towers.  They are two seperate and distinct markets.  

In terms of location, Pickwick is in the same location as 909 Walnut, and the location is not hurting that vacancy rate.  I believe 909 is close to maximum occupancy.  The area itself is perfectly situated.  It is located right in between the government district, the business district and the rivermarket.  It's only 2-3 blocks from P&L and SC.  

My concern is the tax abatement issue.  If anything keeps this project from becoming reality, it is Mark Funkhouser and the city councel.  

BTW, on second reading of your post, GRID, I don't think we're in disagreement.  I misinterpreted your post the first time. 

[DaveKCMO]

i read a real estate investment report thing a month or so ago that said urban rental properties near transit were still hot, even though everything else was not. i don't think this project will have a problem if they can get financing.

[beautyfromashes]

I don't really think they care if it ever happens.  I think they are using this dream as a chance to get rid of all the low income residents in the building, do a little bit of renovation and get the rents they know they can get in the current market.  And, honestly, that is fine with me.  Downtown and midtown have a disproporation amount of Section 8 residences.  These need to be spread out across the entire metro.

[GRID]

i read a real estate investment report thing a month or so ago that said urban rental properties near transit were still hot, even though everything else was not. i don't think this project will have a problem if they can get financing.

Because of the “bus stop” (max or not) around the corner, this property is “near transit”?  haha.  I would guess this is a national report since residential development does not occur because of our non-existing transit system.

Seriously, sometimes I wonder what you guys really are thinking.

[DaveKCMO]

Because of the “bus stop” (max or not) around the corner, this property is “near transit”?  haha.  I would guess this is a national report since residential development does not occur because of our non-existing transit system.

Seriously, sometimes I wonder what you guys really are thinking.

buses are transit. wtf are you smoking? so yeah, it doesn't work well for blue springs. so sorry about that.

[GRID]

buses are transit. wtf are you smoking? so yeah, it doesn't work well for blue springs. so sorry about that.

I would bet the park and rides lots in Blue Springs and the very popular commuter route would have more impact than a downtown max bus stop.

I’m not trying to be an ass.  Just saying that yes, there is still strong demand for housing near transit and the condo and apartment clusters going up, even today, in cities like Charlotte, Minneapolis, Denver, Chicago, San Diego, Seattle etc. are what I would guess they are talking about.  KC is not part of that.  We simply don’t have condos and high density mixed use development going up around transit centers, stations, etc.  Not happening here.

I guess you could use this as an example for KC, but when I think of TOD, nothing in KC even comes to mind.  That type of development is not happing here.  It’s just not.   Sorry, but it’s not.

This development in Houston is popular because it’s “near” transit


atlanta


San diego


St Louis


Denver


I don’t have time, but I can post a photo (that I have taken) of just about any major city in country where residential development is occurring primarily because of its proximity to transit.

I honestly don’t think there is a comparable situation in KC.  When it comes to transit, our peer cities are ¼ to 1/2 our size.

Sorry, I just found that comical.

[voltopt]

Regardless of Kansas City's relative size, I would venture that most of my friends and associates and people I interact with in the core rate proximity to well served bus routes as a major factor in deciding where to rent and/or purchase.  Just because Kansas City isn't building condo towers left and right does not mean there isn't a DEMAND for transit oriented development.

[GRID]

I agree, like I said, I don’t mean to be an ass.  But my patience for better transit in this town has all but run out.  The transit system here is pathetic unless you are going from Crown Center to the Plaza or maybe downtown to the Plaza and even then, that should be something better than a slow city bus with frequencies that can reach a half hour or more in the middle of the city.

I would LOVE to see some true TOD in KC.  I grew up on bus lines.  Um Big deal, Time to take things to the next level.

I have 1000’s of miles of KC bus riding as a prerequisite to say what I want about transit in KC and still use it today.  All cities have apartments along bus lines.  Regardless of where I live.  I would bet I can count on one hand the amount of people in this city that commute into the city on express routes and still ride the local urban routes.

Doesn’t happen here.

Transit in KC is a joke.

[voltopt]

It should be better.  The best way I know how to make it better is by using it, advocating for it, and promoting it.

[scooterj]

I can guarantee you that there is a HEAVY demand for rentable apartments downtown that are not income restricted.   I know numerous people who want to live down there but can't simply because there is nothing available for them.    And transit being at their doorstep is really not an issue.  Especially since this complex includes a garage.

[GRID]

I can guarantee you that there is a HEAVY demand for rentable apartments downtown that are not income restricted.   I know numerous people who want to live down there but can't simply because there is nothing available for them.    And transit being at their doorstep is really not an issue.  Especially since this complex includes a garage.

I agree 100 percent with this.

[GRID]

After thinking about it.  The Cold Storage Lofts is probably the closest thing KC has to a residential development where many residents might have really looked at the proximity to transit because of the north end of the MAX line.  But I would still consider MAX as more of an “option” than an alternative to having a car and would guess that over 95% of the people that live their own cars and commute with them.

[loftguy]

There are literally one hundred plus people per week being turned away from downtown Kansas City due to lack of available rentals.

If you've got $1,600 to $2,500 per month, I can find you a condo to rent, until the owner is able/ready to sell.  If you are under $1,000 per month, good luck.  Get an agent to help you, read craigslist & backpage, and harass the apartment leasing agents, because otherwise someone else is doing that and they are going to get the space.

Oh, and GRID.  Puny as our transit option is, there are many folks living downtown who enquired about access to bus service relative to their living decision.  In conversations with agents and owners they relate that 10 to 20 percent of tenants are concerned.  More than I would have expected at this juncture.