Andrews McMeel Publishing to Boley Bldg.

[kard]

Mean - your making stuff up and got called on it.  It makes your arguments suspect.

Highrise - $4.0 million is not giving away the farm, IMO, but any amount given in excess of what is necessary is a give away.  I wouldn't fall on my sword trying to argue for the request before a thorough analysis is done.

I posted earlier about maybe using abatement and chapter 100.  I know enough to realize that the developer (applicant) has made a certain request and the City has to say yay or nay and can't really make a counter offer.  The point I guess got missed is that TIF is the city's most powerful tool and maybe we ought to be looking to use less powerful tools downtown now that we have invested so much in it.  Just a thought.

this was in the paper awhile ago.  there's a link to whatever story on the forum somewhere.  i'm not going to go find it, but it's out there.

[mean]

Mean - your making stuff up and got called on it.  It makes your arguments suspect.

No, I'm not. As Kard stated, it was widely reported in the media and as I recall acknowledged by both the EDC and city hall. I apologize for assuming you guys actually paid attention to this stuff.

If I had an abundance of time I would search the forum for it, but unfortunately I'm busy packing and will be flying out early tomorrow. I would rather spend my limited online time tonight catching up on other threads and other forums; however, I will happily correct you when I get back in a couple weeks, if you can't be bothered to find the information yourself.

[cdm2p]

this was in the paper awhile ago.  there's a link to whatever story on the forum somewhere.  i'm not going to go find it, but it's out there.

I pay attention, Mean.  Apparently you do not.  You were talking about the TIF audit released prior to the election.  If you understood the report, it said that TIF projects were performing below projections.  You said that police and fire dept. budgets were being cut because of TIF.  Highrise, rather than make stuff up, went to the City budget and showed you that police and fire department budgets actually increased.

KC Highrise proved you wrong, and your reliance on the TIF audit to back your arguments proves that you don't know what you are talking about.

As far as residential towers, here are three that I can think of that went up in the last 4 years: Kirkwood, 46 Broadway, Conover Place in the River Market.  Conover might not be a "tower" per se but it is new construction.

[beautyfromashes]

I will happily correct you when I get back in a couple weeks.

Mean, I hope you're going on some vacation.  You seem to be taking things a wee bit too seriously lately.  Perhaps some R&R on a beach somewhere will do you good.

[Pastense]

You misunderstood, and I wasn't exactly clear. What I said could be a little misleading, because the money "cut out" due to TIF shortfalls was apparently replaced by revenue from other sources--I don't have the time or inclination to dig into where it came from at the moment, but regardless the money did not just come out of thin air. You don't short your city $233 million (City Auditor's numbers) or even $86 million (KC EDC's numbers) and not feel it.

I hate to get back on the so-called TIF audit, but it continues to be misunderstood. With only one (Downtown Hotels) exception there is NO "shortfall" impact on the city budget from "underperforming" TIF projects. The shortfall impacts only the TIF project itself. Most KC TIF's are "pay-as-you-go" meaning that the developer is reimbursed annually from the project's annual TIF revenues for approved expenditures. NO REVENUE, NO REIMBURSEMENT and the developer, not the city, makes up the difference in some fashion. In the rare case of the Downtown Hotel TIF, the city determined that creating hotel rooms to support the investment in Bartle Hall expansion was a necessary and reasonable cause for issuing TIF bonds and backing up those bonds with a city guarantee.

[kard]

I pay attention, Mean.  Apparently you do not.  You were talking about the TIF audit released prior to the election.  If you understood the report, it said that TIF projects were performing below projections.  You said that police and fire dept. budgets were being cut because of TIF.  Highrise, rather than make stuff up, went to the City budget and showed you that police and fire department budgets actually increased.

KC Highrise proved you wrong, and your reliance on the TIF audit to back your arguments proves that you don't know what you are talking about.

As far as residential towers, here are three that I can think of that went up in the last 4 years: Kirkwood, 46 Broadway, Conover Place in the River Market.  Conover might not be a "tower" per se but it is new construction.

why were the police and fire departments singled out in the article we're talking about then?  i can't remember exactly why.

[LenexatoKCMO]

why were the police and fire departments singled out in the article we're talking about then?  i can't remember exactly why.

Because when you are spinning a story to discredit your political opponent, its not good enough to just say that he spends to much money - people don't really care; you have to spread FUD by convincing people that his/her spending will hurt little children, police, firefighters, soldiers, etc. 

[loftguy]

Because when you are spinning a story to discredit your political opponent, its not good enough to just say that he spends to much money - people don't really care; you have to spread FUD by convincing people that his/her spending will hurt little children, police, firefighters, soldiers, etc. 

Damn right.  I have to spend way too much time educating people whose sole source of information is the Kansas City Star.  There is little "truth" to be found there (Kevin Collison being a great exception).  I read it only to be aware of the spread of misinformation.

The Star discredits itself by being driven solely by income production and by an editorial board that seems directed to end growth.

CDM2P, Pastense, KC Highrise, thanks for your input.  This forum does flow thru the community and it is important that we keep spreading honest informed information about the tools that can help the city to keep growing.

[K.C.Highrise]

I'm not going to gloat that I proved someone wrong, i just want people to understand that in order to build a vibrant, and sustainable, downtown, we need business. In order to attract business we need to be agressive in incentives. I am not going to pretend to know the ins and outs of Tiff and related business attracting tools, but what I do find disturbing is people, like the current mayor, banging their drums about how developers are ripping the city off when that have absolutely no evidence for it. Sure some projections haven't come in as expected, and we should look into that, but we can not throw the baby out with the bathwater. I don't want to give out any more incentives than we need, but we also need incentives to give out.

[Highlander]

I hate to get back on the so-called TIF audit, but it continues to be misunderstood. With only one (Downtown Hotels) exception there is NO "shortfall" impact on the city budget from "underperforming" TIF projects. The shortfall impacts only the TIF project itself. Most KC TIF's are "pay-as-you-go" meaning that the developer is reimbursed annually from the project's annual TIF revenues for approved expenditures. NO REVENUE, NO REIMBURSEMENT and the developer, not the city, makes up the difference in some fashion. In the rare case of the Downtown Hotel TIF, the city determined that creating hotel rooms to support the investment in Bartle Hall expansion was a necessary and reasonable cause for issuing TIF bonds and backing up those bonds with a city guarantee.

I do not know enough about TIF's but this is how I interpreted what I have read about most TIF's.  Is the P&L District a pay as you go TIF?  Secondly, didn't the city commit considerable funds to this project in addition to tax breaks by acquiring and clearing land along with the building of parking garages?  I'm not arguing the point as I think the city's investment in the P&L District was absolutely warranted, just asking for clarification. 

Aside from the P&L District, I think one could still argue that even pay as you go TIF's potentially impact the city's bottom line by stressing through competition those businesses that do not divert tax revenue away from the city to pay off a percentage of their investment.  This is why to me, the TIF issue is incredibly complex and is not benefitted by knee-jerk reactions nor should TIF's be implemented/denied by blanket one-size-fits-all policies. 

[GRID]

Tons of empty space is one disincentive -- a big one. Another is less money available from lenders, who also have hiked interest rates.

Well, StL was in worse shape than KC and now look:

[cdm2p]

Is the P&L District a pay as you go TIF? 

No.  P&L is the mother of all TIF's.

[K.C.Highrise]

Yeah... It really was. That is why we need to make sure it works.

[Maitre D]

I'm not going to gloat that I proved someone wrong, i just want people to understand that in order to build a vibrant, and sustainable, downtown, we need business.

Thank you.


I've made this point repeatedly - that I'm tired of buildings used for condo conversions.  The city needs more businesses.  And no more excuses about them not being "relevant" to today's business needs - tons of old buildings in the major cities of this country have been re-wired, etc quite easily.

I'm not going to re-hash the ETax, TIF, or state competition arguments here, only to say that people follow businesses probably moreso than vice versa.

[cdm2p]

I'm not going to re-hash the ETax, TIF, or state competition arguments here, only to say that people follow businesses probably moreso than vice versa.

Not sure about that, MD.  I think businesses want to be where they think they can get the best employees.
That is why the condition of the KCMSD is such a drag.  Not many people want to put their kids in a disfunctional district so they move to the burbs.  Businesses will follow the talent.  Look at all the office buildings in JoCo.  A lot of those are spec buildings.  When was the last time a spec office building was built downtown?

[FangKC]

If city and business leaders think the KCMO school district is such a drag on the city's fortunes, I wonder why the ones that live in KCMO don't run for the school board, and use their intelligence and leadership to make the needed changes?

If the school district truly affects the talent pool, then it is in their best interest to do something about it.  I'm sure there are a lot of former council members and even retired business leaders who could make valuable contributions.

Three of the most recent nine board members are former employees of schools. It may have changed since the web site still has board members listed whose terms expired in 2006.  While teacher experience is probably helpful to the board, is it wise that a third of the membership would be former teachers?  Would former teachers take actions that would not be liked by their former colleagues or the teachers' union?  Would they be willing to set policy or take action against under-performing teachers?  Would there be any conflicts of interest since they might have friends who are still teaching who might be affected?  One has to wonder.

I'm not picking on teachers, but one has to take into account their bias in decision-making.  Are they looking out for their own interests instead of those of the students and the community?  It is sort of like having bank employees serving as auditors or examiners of the bank.

Not one of them is/was someone with a history of leadership in business, or on the corporate or governmental level, or whom has lead a large, complex organization with constituencies that are often at odds.   

It would seem to me that business leaders would have a huge vested interest in seeing that their future pool of employees are educated properly.

[loftguy]

Fang, a couple years ago Al Mauro left the School Board after one term.  He was the former head of KC Southern Railway.  A hard headed, hard working man.  His experience serving the board nearly killed him.  It took an extraordinary toll.  Not because the work was so hard, but because the system and its people were so dysfunctional and committed to remaining so.

With the framework now in place, we need a team of new board members who are from outside the system and united in making difficult, wholesale change.

[KCTigerFan]

With the framework now in place, we need a team of new board members who are from outside the system and united in making difficult, wholesale change.

St. Louis is getting that right now with the takeover of the School Board.  I don't see the KC School Board changing significantly from within. 

[K.C.Highrise]

Than lets take over the school board.

[FangKC]

I agree.  One method would be for respected leaders to run for all nine seats on the board -- picked like candidates for political offices by parties.  The goal being a clean sweep of the current board.

If that can't be accomplished, then leaders should go to the state legislature and ask to have special legislation to have the KCMO school board removed, and have new board members selected and appointed by the governor for at least 10 years before assuming board elections.

If that doesn't work, then go back to the state legislature have ask them to break up the district into smaller ones, or allow Kansas City to form a competing district within the old one that gets half the tax revenues.  The one that performs best after 10 years takes over the entire district.

There should also be a law written that no board member can be a current or former member of any teachers union. That is a conflict of interest.  I don't think current or former members of the teachers union should be empowered to negotiate union contracts.