Status and future of the River Market area??

[zonk]

Just noticed that there is now a Nicholson Group sign up on this corner.

Price update...$375,000.  WOW!!!

[loftguy]

Let's see.......$375,000.  Somebody help me.  Just how many hot dogs do I have to sell out of a stand on that lot to be able to pay for my presence?

Oh, and by the way, I saw a similar size lot, in a similar location in dwtn Denver recently.  It was $1,150,000.
I have a yen to know what it would cost in Tokyo.

[Czar]

You cant beat the view from that lot.....  It is about 6K sf so for $375 it is about $62/psf.  With land prices like that you must build skywards.  Lets hope they sell it.

[butter_breath]

Sorry fireman my bad it should be 26 days a month open 307 beers a day, would cover the cost of rent, but If you ran a 6% project gross for rent which should s.o.p. for rent and if you ran a 25 % on the bar food and a 30 % on liquor cost, 20 % on labor 10% for misc fixed liabilities you would need to gross $2300 aday or 770 beers a day. Which should yeild you a 8 to 9 % pofrit. Gotta make enuff to pay the taxes that pay for the firefighters etc. But if they raise the min wage to ten an hour then omg that might be 850 beers aday.

[kc-vino]

I heard some news this weekend that I would love for it to be true.  Apparently the parking lot south of Minsky's, west of the restaurant supply building, and east of the rental units on 5th and Delaware is up for sale and somebody is buying it and wants to develop a multi story building on the property. 

Has anybody heard anything of this caliber?  It would make sense, the Rivermarket has way to much surface parking and more demand for office space than anything else.  The RM needs another infill project of this nature and size to give it a kick in the pants and get it going.

[scooterj]

If it's true, that's GREAT news.  Though some degree of surface parking is needed, this is one of the more visible (from a distance) lots.5th Street could definitely use some infill between Main and Delaware to have the neighborhood more cohesive.

[chrizow]

the future of the river market is looking MUCH more bright now that i am moving one block away.  i tend to revitalize neighborhoods single-handedly.

[voltopt]

i think it may be approaching time for a public garage at the northwest corner of fifth and main street, on the large, block sized city owned parking lot.  it should be a total of 6 levels at least, with a lower level, proper screening of cars, and ample retail space on the street level and stepping up the former main street to the park at 4th and main.  (in fact, retail possibilities should wrap the entire building)
with the increased density of parking, the two lots south of fifth would be available for building, as would a couple other lots in the immediate area.   especially if this garage is treated as a civic investment, similar to the one at 12th and oak and elsewhere.

this could also free up some of the large parking lot around 4th and wyandotte for development, and help complete fourth street as a pedestrian retail experience...

[DaveKCMO]

i'm trying to visualize if there is any public structured parking in the river market... can't think of any open to the public. anyone?

[Czar]

I heard some news this weekend that I would love for it to be true.  Apparently the parking lot south of Minsky's, west of the restaurant supply building, and east of the rental units on 5th and Delaware is up for sale and somebody is buying it and wants to develop a multi story building on the property. 

Has anybody heard anything of this caliber?  It would make sense, the Rivermarket has way to much surface parking and more demand for office space than anything else.  The RM needs another infill project of this nature and size to give it a kick in the pants and get it going.

That is a KCMO owned parking lot..  Are you sure your souce is correct?

[kc-vino]

The only other parking garage structure I can think of is connected to Riverbend but it's for residents.  Their is also a problem with HOK parking.  The company charges its employees $20 per month to park in the HOK lot so many thrifty employees (and can you really blame them) don't pay it and instead park in the free parking that is to be used for Rivermarket residents (the lot just north of the former Cup and Saucer restaurant).  This is causing big debates because parking services just started (a month ago) ticketing those who park in the two hour parking over night.  But they are tolerant with those in the free parking, but they just don't realize that HOK is causing a huge shortage of resident parking during the day.

[voltopt]

Parking Lot ownership!
500 main street, at the southwest corner of 5th and main, is owned by Kansas City.
7 E Fifth, at the southeast corner of 5th and main, is owned by Kansas City.
400 main street, at the northwest corner of 5th and main, is owned by Kansas City.

[DaveKCMO]

There is also a problem with HOK parking.

sounds like resident parking permits are in order! i applaud HOK for charging their employees for parking... encourages the use of mass transit.

so it's true that there is no public or city-owned garage in the river market. sounds like an opportunity...

[kc-vino]

sounds like resident parking permits are in order! i applaud HOK for charging their employees for parking... encourages the use of mass transit.

so it's true that there is no public or city-owned garage in the river market. sounds like an opportunity...

Yes and NO.  Their is no encouragement for people to take mass transit when they can park a short frisbee throw away for free.  This in turn just fogs and throws gas on fire when it comes to parking.  And this isn't very good for RM business.  If you have an hour and you cannot find a parking spot to visit Delaware cafe or Cafe Al Dente and you drive somewhere else that is a missed opportunity.  I'm not saying that people should be able to park outside of the place they want to eat like in the suburbs but I would rather see those visiting businesses on Delaware or residents and their friends getting the spots that HOK employees.  This just shifts the responsibility to other people when they have ample underground and out of site parking. 
HOK employees have plenty of disincentives to commuting and its traffic, gas prices, and the option to always live next to where you work.  You could live in the RM and cart wheel to work in under a minute.

[jimb]

When I worked for DST back in the 90s, there was plenty of free on-street parking close to our office on Broadway.  The catch was you could only park there for 2 hours (except for some streets a LONG way away).  The KCPD parking patrol checked the area constantly, so you had a better than even chance of getting caught.  Your options were, basically, to pay for parking or go move your car every couple of hours.  Most supervisors weren't too keen on the latter.  That kept the spots opened for lunch time visitors and the like.

On the Plaza, the plaza patrol used to monitor the garages closely.  There were a few slots you could pay for (after a long waiting list).  If the patrol noticed your car parking frequently for long periods of time in the same garage over and over, they would ticket you.  Of course, they had the advantage of the garages being private property.

Dave said it was time for residential parking permits.  Combine that with limited term parking for the non-permitted cars (like 2 hr max from 7a-6p or something).  Check the lot regularly and make the fines hurt.

[kc-vino]

When I worked for DST back in the 90s, there was plenty of free on-street parking close to our office on Broadway.  The catch was you could only park there for 2 hours (except for some streets a LONG way away).  The KCPD parking patrol checked the area constantly, so you had a better than even chance of getting caught.  Your options were, basically, to pay for parking or go move your car every couple of hours.  Most supervisors weren't too keen on the latter.  That kept the spots opened for lunch time visitors and the like.

On the Plaza, the plaza patrol used to monitor the garages closely.  There were a few slots you could pay for (after a long waiting list).  If the patrol noticed your car parking frequently for long periods of time in the same garage over and over, they would ticket you.  Of course, they had the advantage of the garages being private property.

Dave said it was time for residential parking permits.  Combine that with limited term parking for the non-permitted cars (like 2 hr max from 7a-6p or something).  Check the lot regularly and make the fines hurt.

They do have residential parking permits and they have started ticketing the residents when the residents have a parking spot given to them and it is written into their lease.  And this goes for basically any loft (pacific house, lofts above Delaware, ebanezzar, etc).  This is the unfair element.  They are cracking down on residents who have a parking spot in their lease while not cracking down on the real offenders  HOK

[scooterj]

The signage on those lots states that there is a 3-hour time limit for nonresidents, so enforcement of that should solve the HOK problem.

[advocrat]

I've followed this thread for a few weeks, pondering and musing on what might be. You can close your eyes and imagine with me what I think River Market could be like (just kidding of course-this is my dream.) Many of the thoughts expressed on this thread are included in some capacity. My ideas are going to take up a little space by the way...

Does anybody have any old pictures of the River Market pre 1980's River Quay days?  I've heard stories of the bars that lined the streets on Walnut and Delaware but have never really seen older pictures of this.  Even in the "Then and Now" series on this city you never really see any images.

I remember River Market when it was the River Quay and before when it was just old.  Back in the day there was Victoria Station, a prime rib chain that you had to have reservations for every day of the week. It was great, and now a memory. There's room for new great restaurants.  I would like to see Delaware experience infill. Ebenezer's in October 1972 was the scene of a political appearance by Maria Shriver's dad when he was McGovern's running mate. It was a mob scene on Delaware. Maria's mother Eunice signed a campaign hat for me, Charlie Wheeler was there, his 12 year old daughter couldn't see above the crowd so I picked her up by the arm pits so she could see until my strength gave out.  The River Quay was a really fun place in the summer of 1973, like Westport at it's busiest, and I'm not exaggerating. I'm sorry I don't have any pictures, it's all a memory now. The mob war stopped River Quay in its tracks.

But back to my dream and hope for the future....

What great news to hear about the KCS development-this is key. I'd love to see a few condo towers that overlook the market and the Missouri River and its confluence with the Kaw and Wheeler Airport and North Kansas City-what a view for the lucky few.

Ever been to Seattle? Most people will rave about the Pike Street Fish Market. It IS that cool. How much better than our City Market(?)-a fair question. It runs for about 4-5 blocks and has lots of shops, art, food, trinkets, souvenirs and so on. It's built on several levels and has parking, but our City Market more than half as long if you stretched it out and compared it Pike Street. New York City's South Street Seaport appears to have about the same mix as Pike Street. My dream is that our City Market become a twenty-hour open activity, seven days a week. It should become the River Market neighborhood grocery, convenience store, night life center, tourist for those lucky few who live north of the north loop, and a tourist attraction.

Critical mass: It seems to me that River Market is just short of the critical mass needed. 2nd Street development has so much potential, with shops and merchants and restaurants.

Nearby: The Grand Avenue bridge to Berkely River Front Park and the rumored residential development in those bottoms are very exciting, potentially bringing an urban middle-class population in the near vicinity. The people there would likely pass through and patronize the River Market Neighborhood in noticeable numbers. What a quick connection to the Casino and vice-versa. Investment in the roads, with an eye towards the pedestrian, the jogger, the cyclist and light-rail are part of my dream.

But the City Market is key to this vision. It should serve the neighborhood at all hours.
Steamboat Arabia has considered moving. What a great place for a grocery store to complement the fresh food. If only there were a McGonigles class meat market to complement and promote one of the signature things that KC is known for: Beef and Packing. Isn't this the Heartland equivalent of Seattle's Pike Street Fish Market?

Also nearby: I can't shake the idea of a West Bottoms neighborhood that uses that connection under I-70 (Woodswether viaduct and Beardsley Road to complement River Market from the West. There's only one River Market, and one City Market and these are in the heart of Old Kansas City. 

[staubio]

Thanks for sharing your thoughts and memories, advocrat.  Great post.

I agree that the City Market should be central to the neighborhood.  It could be a major 24 hour attraction if done correctly.

[FangKC]

Delaware Street north of 7th during parade in 1897.  All of the buildings are gone.  Sometimes I think downtown felt more like a city then than now.



One of the problems with the permanent City Market vendors is the low-quality of the produce. Often one has to pick through past-prime fruit and vegetables.  Packaged produce often has mold in it already (strawberries, blueberries, peaches especially). They also sneak partially-rotted fruit into the cardboard trays and hide it underneath. I don't know how many times I've bought peaches there only to cut them open and find the interior is rotten out or full of black mold.

It's like the vendors use the city market as an outlet to get rid of stuff they can't sell to a store.  The City Market should provide the freshest produce available. It's why people would go to a public market.  It's not so bad in the summer when the farmer's are there. City Markets used to be the wholesale market where small groceries and restaurant owners went to buy their food. I seriously doubt that restaurant chefs would go to the City Market to pick out fresh produce for their restaurant.  Maybe in the summer when the Amish are there, but the rest of the year it's not the best.

I've always wished that the City Market had fresh fish stalls too. It would also be great if there were more vendors who made specialty baked breads daily, pastries, candy, and a really good meat shop.

I remember that there is a place in lower Manhattan on the edge of Chinatown where one could pick out a live chicken or duck and have it butchered right then and there.   :lol:  When you looked into the windows of the building, there were rows of shelves with different types of chickens in cages. It was sort of like a pet store, but you eat the pet.   :P  I also recall walking through Chinatown past storefronts and seeing bushel baskets filled with live turtles, frogs, and other oddities; an occasional caged rabbit or pigeon; and buckets of water with live catfish, carp, and eel, and all sorts of shellfish, crayfish, and crawdads.  One might also look into a store's front window and see a severed pig's head on ice with an apple in its mouth.

The Chinese certainly know how to create a colorful, vibrant streetscape, and provide a memorable and visceral experience.