I would agree, in general.bahua wrote: I'm not referring to a changing style of language. I'm talking about the supposedly literate masses having no concern about articulately using their own language. In the past, languages have experienced change only in the spoken form, and the written form has followed. What's happening now is that the written form is actually degrading and limiting the capability of our language.
If you could care less about grammar, skip this topic.
Re: If you could care less about grammar, skip this topic.
Re: If you could care less about grammar, skip this topic.
I'm no linguist, but I would guess that the change of a language, over time, is due in large part to the expansion of the language's vocabulary, and the adoption of new segments, forsaking the old. This is fine- it's the way things work. But our vocabulary is actually contracting. English is being downsized. Fewer and shorter words are becoming the norm, and it's all accented with nonsensical grammar that reflects laziness and ignorance. Our own stupidity isn't what has dictated the linguistic changes the English language has undergone over the centuries.chrizow wrote: how so?
language is constantly in flux and has innumerable capabilities.
Re: If you could care less about grammar, skip this topic.
our vocabulary isn't shrinking at all, although it's pretty clear that a growing segment of our society chooses not to take advantage of educational opportunities and watches tv all day. further, plenty of "nonsensical grammar" develops into everyday "sensical grammar" and slang/dialects/shorthand ways of speaking, etc. have been part of all cultures' lexicons through the ages.
Re: If you could care less about grammar, skip this topic.
What makes you say that?chrizow wrote: plenty of "nonsensical grammar" develops into everyday "sensical grammar"
Re: If you could care less about grammar, skip this topic.
i'm having trouble thinking of examples but i remember reading in linguistics class about how obtuse slang words from medieval england (or wherever) end up being the signs for bedrock concepts like measurement, etc. language is merely communication and it does not follow comparatively rigid rules like mathematics or physics. usage and vocabulary are constantly in flux and have evolved over time due to travel, colonialization, immigration, and the like. this reminds me of the debate on this forum a few month's back about "authentic" mexican cuisine. i think chingon's points on that topic apply here as well - there is no such thing as authentic or correct food or language, as these things are merely cultural exchanges that, while invaluable abilities and facets of culture, are not talismanic or unchanging and are only worth their utility in culture. language, food, arts, even science are just parts of human expression and i think it's somewhat elitist or at the very least condescending to somehow imply that "other people" are degrading the language when we all do our part to develop language. insofar as you exist in any culture, you are in some small way altering it, and that's fine. while i might have my own tastes regarding what sort of prevailing discourse i prefer in our culture, i think that hearkening back to the good ol' days of proper grammar (which doesn't exist) is like the folks who decry our debased culture and try to recapture a fictional "leave it to beaver" civility.
Re: If you could care less about grammar, skip this topic.
^Well put. However in a white collar job, I'm embarrassed for those who demonstrate extremely poor grammar in their documentation or emails. It's embarrassing to me as well when I catch my own grammar errors after sending a message/document (or posting on this site).
Effective communication between you and your audience is all that matters in the end, but 'appropriate' protocol has its place in certain contexts, like on a resume or when negotiating with a gangbanger.
Effective communication between you and your audience is all that matters in the end, but 'appropriate' protocol has its place in certain contexts, like on a resume or when negotiating with a gangbanger.
___________
City guide via MAX bus
City guide via MAX bus
Re: If you could care less about grammar, skip this topic.
I agree. But that doesn't diminish the importance of properly using our language.chrizow wrote: i think that hearkening back to the good ol' days of proper grammar (which doesn't exist) is like the folks who decry our debased culture and try to recapture a fictional "leave it to beaver" civility.
Re: If you could care less about grammar, skip this topic.
sure, to fully function in a given segment of society, one has to be able to communicate effectively with her audience. i just don't see anything good or bad about changing standards of grammar, usage, vocabulary, etc., as such changes are absolutely inevitable and crucial to cultural change. that said, when communicating in a given context it is valuable to make some effort to communicate according to the "rules" of the moment.
for example, if i write an email to my boss, it's about 5000x more formal than, say, an email to a friend or a post on this site. quite frequently, however, that email begins a series of emails which become progressively less formal and even grammatically incorrect. verbs might be dispensed with altogether, greetings are axed, names become initials or are omitted, even capitalization is omitted...this is b/c the "rules" of grammar are actually hindering fast, effective communication. as with a computer system, a linguistic system needs to be more efficient in real-time.
for example, if i write an email to my boss, it's about 5000x more formal than, say, an email to a friend or a post on this site. quite frequently, however, that email begins a series of emails which become progressively less formal and even grammatically incorrect. verbs might be dispensed with altogether, greetings are axed, names become initials or are omitted, even capitalization is omitted...this is b/c the "rules" of grammar are actually hindering fast, effective communication. as with a computer system, a linguistic system needs to be more efficient in real-time.
i would delete "properly" from that sentence, b/c i don't think there is any such thing.bahua wrote: I agree. But that doesn't diminish the importance of properly using our language.
Re: If you could care less about grammar, skip this topic.
I think believing changes in "standards of grammar, usage, vocabulary, etc." are morally neutral is doubleplusungood.chrizow wrote: i just don't see anything good or bad about changing standards of grammar, usage, vocabulary, etc., as such changes are absolutely inevitable and crucial to cultural change.
Re: If you could care less about grammar, skip this topic.
Also, the fact that our language is in flux is no excuse to abuse it at will.
Re: If you could care less about grammar, skip this topic.
define "abuse," b/c from my view i don't think one can abuse a language. that's like abusing "art."bahua wrote: Also, the fact that our language is in flux is no excuse to abuse it at will.
Re: If you could care less about grammar, skip this topic.
The fact that our language is in a glacial state of change does not excuse its misuse. Our language has a composition and structure. Ignoring that for the sake of that change is like changing lanes without signaling, and justifying it by saying that in 500 years there won't be any turn signals.
Re: If you could care less about grammar, skip this topic.
i think you're just extrapolating a pet peeve of yours (people using "improper" english) into some systemic meltdown of culture or humanity. certainly, those who use certain kinds of improper english (e.g. ebonics, an oft-cited form of "improper" english) will not have much opportunity to advance in a culture which privileges a different form of english, but i really have absolutely no fear that modern humans are doing anything to "the language" that we should be worried about whatsoever.
Re: If you could care less about grammar, skip this topic.
Sentences start with a capital letter, as do proper nouns!chrizow wrote: i think you're just extrapolating a pet peeve of yours (people using "improper" english) into some systemic meltdown of culture or humanity. certainly, those who use certain kinds of improper english (e.g. ebonics, an oft-cited form of "improper" english) will not have much opportunity to advance in a culture which privileges a different form of english, but i really have absolutely no fear that modern humans are doing anything to "the language" that we should be worried about whatsoever.
Re: If you could care less about grammar, skip this topic.
leave me be, peasant! i am dismantling this godforsaken language piece by piece, so future generations will only be able to communicate in grunts and beams of light!lock+load wrote: Sentences start with a capital letter, as do proper nouns!
Re: If you could care less about grammar, skip this topic.
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ [sic]^^^^^[sic]grammatically challenged wrote:Using this forum to slander and impune a contractors character is low to say the least!I
There is no impunity for grammatical errors on public web forums. Such errors are embarrassing per se. Additionally, the errors become a salient invitation for other forum participants to impugn the character, or worse, the intellect of the writer committing such gaffes. When in doubt use spell checker and the dictionary.
Whether one slanders or libels another is generally defined by the form of speech used. "The common law origins of defamation lie in the torts of slander (harmful statement in a transitory form, especially speech) and libel (harmful statement in a fixed medium, especially writing but also a picture, sign, or electronic broadcast), each of which gives a common law right of action."
Given this definition from Wikipedia, libel is the correct word to use in the above sentence.
Last edited by phna on Tue Aug 28, 2007 1:59 am, edited 1 time in total.
Man is condemned to be free; because once thrown into the world, he is responsible for everything he does.
Jean Paul Sartre
Jean Paul Sartre
Re: If you could care less about grammar, skip this topic.
No, I simply haven't agreed with you yet. Just because I continue to disagree with you on a topic doesn't constitute some need on my part to turn my problems into the world's problems. It just means I don't agree with you.chrizow wrote: i think you're just extrapolating a pet peeve of yours (people using "improper" english) into some systemic meltdown of culture or humanity.
Re: If you could care less about grammar, skip this topic.
fair enough. i just fail to see how we're doing *anything* to "the language" these days that countless generations of other humans have not done to their own language. what exactly are you even talking about, anyway? maybe an example would help.
Re: If you could care less about grammar, skip this topic.
I'm talking about dismissing abuses of our language, derived from laziness and ignorance, as "signs of change."
Re: If you could care less about grammar, skip this topic.
what abuses?bahua wrote: I'm talking about dismissing abuses of our language, derived from laziness and ignorance, as "signs of change."