Urbanism and Pros and Cons of Gentrification

KC topics that don't fit anywhere else.
User avatar
beautyfromashes
Bryant Building
Bryant Building
Posts: 4045
Joined: Mon Mar 21, 2005 11:04 am

Re: Urbanism and Pros and Cons of Gentrification

Postby beautyfromashes » Fri Jan 26, 2018 2:19 pm

tower wrote:^Ban McMansions, legalize Rowhouses. and granny flats

https://www.theurbanist.org/2017/01/09/ban-mcmansions/

Would never fly in KC. We have so much space to fill and an overbuilt highway system. While I think the urban core will soon be one of the most desirable locations to live, if the comparison is a 1500ft house on a tiny lot vs a 3000 ft house on a big suburban lot, a family will choose the suburbs at the same price. I understand density, but when 2/3 of the lots in Valentine are empty, there’s no reason to push smaller. Fill up lots with good sized family homes to compete directly with modern suburbs.

User avatar
chaglang
Hotel President
Hotel President
Posts: 3261
Joined: Wed Jan 04, 2012 12:44 pm

Re: Urbanism and Pros and Cons of Gentrification

Postby chaglang » Fri Jan 26, 2018 2:23 pm

beautyfromashes wrote:I wish there was a quality house that could be developed for areas like this. Something that fits in the scale of some of these old craftsman homes but has the quality to match it while not being overpriced. I remember how there used to be homes you could order in the Sears catalog. They would deliver all the materials and it would be put together ina kit format. Many of the homes in Midtown even have similar crests on the front. If a standard 4BR/ 3b house could be purchased at a bulk price of, say $140k while having modern interiors and quality looking steroids to match the neighborhood, it would be a game changer for Midtown. New houses on a nice lot with an external garage under $200k would fly off the shelfs in Midtown. Would modular be an option?


Modular is a good idea, but it seems like the market for homes in the $200k range is pretty well covered. Maybe not 4/3, but definitely 3/2 or 3/1. The thing that everyone (by which I mean the standard Midtown Neighborhood Person) would have to be comfortable with is that the materials quality and the look would be appropriate by 2018 standards but probably not 1918 standards. I suspect that would be the tradeoff for keeping the price low. Caveat: I know zip about modular buildings.

The real game changer would be more 4/6/8 plex apartments and the additional residents it would bring.

Edit: Just saw your other post. 1500 sf city house vs 3000 sf burb house at the same price?

User avatar
beautyfromashes
Bryant Building
Bryant Building
Posts: 4045
Joined: Mon Mar 21, 2005 11:04 am

Re: Urbanism and Pros and Cons of Gentrification

Postby beautyfromashes » Fri Jan 26, 2018 2:48 pm

chaglang wrote:
Edit: Just saw your other post. 1500 sf city house vs 3000 sf burb house at the same price?

You can absolutely find a 3000ft 4+ BR house in an existing KC surburb got $200k. I doubt a new house built in the core like the ones mentioned in the article at around 1500ft could be built for the same price.

User avatar
normalthings
Colonnade
Colonnade
Posts: 973
Joined: Mon Mar 30, 2015 9:52 pm

Re: Urbanism and Pros and Cons of Gentrification

Postby normalthings » Fri Jan 26, 2018 2:54 pm

beautyfromashes wrote:
chaglang wrote:
Edit: Just saw your other post. 1500 sf city house vs 3000 sf burb house at the same price?

You can absolutely find a 3000ft 4+ BR house in an existing KC surburb got $200k. I doubt a new house built in the core like the ones mentioned in the article at around 1500ft could be built for the same price.

Where? I think you'd really have to be out there to find anything that size.

additonally, there have been numerous reports detailing how the big suburban house is no longer the desire of young families, how younger families have a lot less stuff than older generations, and etc

User avatar
chrizow
Global Moderator
Global Moderator
Posts: 16964
Joined: Fri Aug 08, 2003 8:43 am

Re: Urbanism and Pros and Cons of Gentrification

Postby chrizow » Fri Jan 26, 2018 2:56 pm

$200K doesn't go very far in the burbs either. You don't get much for that money - if you're talking Olathe, LS, Parkville, OP, etc. you might get a 10-30 year old split level, 1800-2200 sq ft, that is pretty dated.

User avatar
chaglang
Hotel President
Hotel President
Posts: 3261
Joined: Wed Jan 04, 2012 12:44 pm

Re: Urbanism and Pros and Cons of Gentrification

Postby chaglang » Fri Jan 26, 2018 2:57 pm

I just plugged those criteria (4/3, 3000 sf, $200k max) into Reese and Nichols' website. The closest house to KC is in Topeka. If you remove the bathroom criteria ("Any"), there is one house in Grandview and a few in HNE.

User avatar
beautyfromashes
Bryant Building
Bryant Building
Posts: 4045
Joined: Mon Mar 21, 2005 11:04 am

Re: Urbanism and Pros and Cons of Gentrification

Postby beautyfromashes » Fri Jan 26, 2018 3:15 pm

You’re looking at the list price. Here’s a nice one from about 1 year ago (might be above $169k now) as an example. Northland.
https://www.zillow.com/homedetails/500- ... 14922_zpid

User avatar
beautyfromashes
Bryant Building
Bryant Building
Posts: 4045
Joined: Mon Mar 21, 2005 11:04 am

Re: Urbanism and Pros and Cons of Gentrification

Postby beautyfromashes » Fri Jan 26, 2018 3:21 pm

The whole point is we need to find a way to compete with our suburbs for families. Sure, we have a lot of singles and newly married who would go for a 1 br apartment or condo. But, to keep families, you have to give value. Why can’t someone go to KC Life and offer to buy any or all of their 100s of lots and put up quality built, but mass produced houses that would meet the needs of families. KC Life would get $20-$30k per lot and build a workforce around their company. House would be prefab with a yard and big enough for a normal family and sell for maybe $220. They would sell out quick.

User avatar
chaglang
Hotel President
Hotel President
Posts: 3261
Joined: Wed Jan 04, 2012 12:44 pm

Re: Urbanism and Pros and Cons of Gentrification

Postby chaglang » Fri Jan 26, 2018 4:07 pm

I'm relatively sure they have been approached by developers. It only seems to reinforce their idea that the land will be worth more in the future and they have nothing to lose by hanging onto it.

Isn't the reason a lot of these midtown neighborhoods are changing because there's already value there to be had? We don't see a lot of movement in the condo/apartment market, but a LOT of families with kids in the SFH part of the market. In fact our lack of affordable multifamily hampers our ability to absorb new families in SFHs while keeping longtime residents.

User avatar
normalthings
Colonnade
Colonnade
Posts: 973
Joined: Mon Mar 30, 2015 9:52 pm

Re: Urbanism and Pros and Cons of Gentrification

Postby normalthings » Fri Jan 26, 2018 4:14 pm

beautyfromashes wrote:You’re looking at the list price. Here’s a nice one from about 1 year ago (might be above $169k now) as an example. Northland.
https://www.zillow.com/homedetails/500- ... 14922_zpid

That is an outlier. The home is old in both age and finishings.
You can just as easily find an old and dated home in the urban core.

User avatar
beautyfromashes
Bryant Building
Bryant Building
Posts: 4045
Joined: Mon Mar 21, 2005 11:04 am

Re: Urbanism and Pros and Cons of Gentrification

Postby beautyfromashes » Fri Jan 26, 2018 4:28 pm

Not really the point, but find me something West of Troost that’s that size and price. I’ll probably buy it.
Last edited by beautyfromashes on Fri Jan 26, 2018 4:50 pm, edited 1 time in total.

User avatar
chaglang
Hotel President
Hotel President
Posts: 3261
Joined: Wed Jan 04, 2012 12:44 pm

Re: Urbanism and Pros and Cons of Gentrification

Postby chaglang » Fri Jan 26, 2018 4:43 pm

Welcome to Squier Park!

tower
Strip mall
Strip mall
Posts: 197
Joined: Tue Sep 05, 2017 8:45 am
Location: Midtown

Re: Urbanism and Pros and Cons of Gentrification

Postby tower » Sun Jan 28, 2018 10:00 pm

beautyfromashes wrote:
tower wrote:^Ban McMansions, legalize Rowhouses. and granny flats

https://www.theurbanist.org/2017/01/09/ban-mcmansions/

Would never fly in KC. We have so much space to fill and an overbuilt highway system. While I think the urban core will soon be one of the most desirable locations to live, if the comparison is a 1500ft house on a tiny lot vs a 3000 ft house on a big suburban lot, a family will choose the suburbs at the same price. I understand density, but when 2/3 of the lots in Valentine are empty, there’s no reason to push smaller. Fill up lots with good sized family homes to compete directly with modern suburbs.


I'm not quite sure. Obviously some sort of study would have to be done first. I do think we need to push for smaller before all of the lots are filled though. Before an expected period of growth is the best time to do it, and it will provide a more desirable, lively neighborhood in the long run. I bet Seattle and Portland wish they did it 20 years ago.

flyingember
One Park Place
One Park Place
Posts: 6529
Joined: Tue Jul 17, 2012 7:54 am

Re: Urbanism and Pros and Cons of Gentrification

Postby flyingember » Mon Jan 29, 2018 1:00 pm

chrizow wrote:$200K doesn't go very far in the burbs either. You don't get much for that money - if you're talking Olathe, LS, Parkville, OP, etc. you might get a 10-30 year old split level, 1800-2200 sq ft, that is pretty dated.

There's one near us at 110 NW Greentree that says 1350 sq feet, from 1955. Nearly 100% renovated it appears
Priced at $225k

The house at 3321 Holmes saying 2300 sq feet and fully renovated. It's up at $235k. Would cost over $400k if it was new. The stonework alone is $20k of the price

That's a huge market disparity and there's going to be years of price increases coming in this neighborhood. I would expect about everything Gillham through the Paseo in midtown to appreciate by 40-50% if renovations pick up.

User avatar
normalthings
Colonnade
Colonnade
Posts: 973
Joined: Mon Mar 30, 2015 9:52 pm

Re: Urbanism and Pros and Cons of Gentrification

Postby normalthings » Mon Apr 23, 2018 9:51 pm

Hey! Not sure if this is the right place to post but I'm putting together a presentation about how KC has overbuilt low-density areas leading to massive detrimental long-term effects. I am currently struggling to find examples and data about the differences between dense and low density neighborhoods. I remember a while back strong towns had some good examples about water mains per house and road per house. Can anyone provide data or good sources to look into?


tower
Strip mall
Strip mall
Posts: 197
Joined: Tue Sep 05, 2017 8:45 am
Location: Midtown

Re: Urbanism and Pros and Cons of Gentrification

Postby tower » Mon Apr 23, 2018 10:55 pm

ldai_phs wrote:Hey! Not sure if this is the right place to post but I'm putting together a presentation about how KC has overbuilt low-density areas leading to massive detrimental long-term effects. I am currently struggling to find examples and data about the differences between dense and low density neighborhoods. I remember a while back strong towns had some good examples about water mains per house and road per house. Can anyone provide data or good sources to look into?



Strong towns refers to it as the "Growth Ponzi Scheme". They have some really good numbers in their presentations, but I couldn't find those.
https://www.strongtowns.org/journal/201 ... nzi-scheme
(Its a series, the other articles are linked at the bottom)

This has some good graphs about cost per acre:
https://www.citylab.com/equity/2013/05/ ... rawl/5664/

This lays it out cost per household:
https://www.treehugger.com/urban-design ... think.html

Edit: don't forget to talk about societal costs! Health care, deaths, etc. You could quantify a lot of those. If you want to get really cold, the EPA actually has a dollar amount that they have placed on human life.

flyingember
One Park Place
One Park Place
Posts: 6529
Joined: Tue Jul 17, 2012 7:54 am

Re: Urbanism and Pros and Cons of Gentrification

Postby flyingember » Tue Apr 24, 2018 8:54 am

ldai_phs wrote:Hey! Not sure if this is the right place to post but I'm putting together a presentation about how KC has overbuilt low-density areas leading to massive detrimental long-term effects. I am currently struggling to find examples and data about the differences between dense and low density neighborhoods. I remember a while back strong towns had some good examples about water mains per house and road per house. Can anyone provide data or good sources to look into?


One thing I find interesting is how little things have to change to gain density.

A maximum 6 foot side setback still allows for a suburban design, but over an 8 foot minimum setback for most yards it's a big difference.

Take a 30 foot wide home. 8 feet on each side is 46 feet, 6 feet is 42. With 10 homes in a row today that's 420 vs 460 feet and you basically have room for another home in the same amount of space.

It's not much but a 10% increase in density would be a 10% increase in taxes gained without changing anything else.

User avatar
FangKC
City Center Square
City Center Square
Posts: 12633
Joined: Sat Jul 26, 2003 10:02 pm
Location: Old Northeast -- Indian Mound

Re: Urbanism and Pros and Cons of Gentrification

Postby FangKC » Tue Apr 24, 2018 2:53 pm

In most parts of the City, home lots are WAY too big. And I would wager that if you did a study, many occupants rarely use their yards except to mow them. I work in my vegetable garden regularly and have a wide-open view of my neighbors' back yards, and I never see anyone in them except when they mow once a week.
Last edited by FangKC on Tue Apr 24, 2018 8:54 pm, edited 1 time in total.

moderne
Bryant Building
Bryant Building
Posts: 3946
Joined: Fri Sep 03, 2004 2:50 pm
Location: downtown

Re: Urbanism and Pros and Cons of Gentrification

Postby moderne » Tue Apr 24, 2018 6:16 pm

Most post WWII lots are way too huge. But how can areas developed like that be infilled?


Return to “General Kansas City”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 7 guests