KCRag Forum

‘Disgusting’ conditions greeted auditor on first inspection of Jackson County jail
On his first visit to size up the Jackson County jail earlier this year, it was the filth that auditor Jim Rowenhorst initially found most appalling

Toilets crusted with feces, filthy mattresses and showers that looked as if they hadn’t been cleaned in a very long time.
http://www.kansascity.com/news/politics ... 39442.html

Jackson County legislators to address jail deficiencies
The Jackson County Legislature is planning to address an audit of the detention facility that has been the site of repeated scandals.

http://www.kmbz.com/articles/jackson-co ... ficiencies

Do not pass go: Jackson County jail needs more than a facelift

Of the many tough calls in this world, this is not one: Jackson County needs a new jail.

When you defer maintenance for 30 years, you can’t get by with a renovation. And the $150 million it would take to rehab the jail complex at 13th and Cherry wouldn’t even solve the safety problems there. Or the overcrowding.

A new facility would cost at least $30 million more.
http://www.kansascity.com/opinion/edito ... 45907.html

Jackson County inmates sue over jail conditions

KANSAS CITY, MO (KCTV) -
The Jackson County Jail is targeted in a new lawsuit.

The handwritten lawsuit says life inside the Jackson County Jail is pretty gross. The six men who filed the lawsuit say sheets haven't been washed in more than six months.

http://www.kctv5.com/story/36395509/jac ... conditions

Is it just time to build a brand new jail and raze the old one? I understand that it's probably convenience for the prison to be located near the courthouse. But I would think it'd be much easier, and safer to locate the prison in the countryside of Jackson County, in a brand new facility. The investment would, at least as far as I can see, be worth it.

It would take the necessarily capital to acquire 80-150 acres in rural Jackson County, and build a secure, modern 1,500-2,000 (or more?) capacity facility.

The county could offset the cost by selling the old property at 13th & Cherry to a developer.

I could see value in a facility which has more of an "outpatient" mentality as an option.

We need to put focus on reducing recidivism in the prison system. And a new prison facility could allow the current facility to be renovated and used for this purpose.

Putting jails and prisons far outside of the cities puts the problems out of sight/out of mind, and makes it harder for inmates' families to come visit, a significant factor in reducing recidivism. Also they often end up going in polluted areas.

We have a quarter of the world's prison population in the US (in large part for the purposes of providing cheap labor to multinational corporations). We should be looking at ways to reduce our imprisoned population rather than looking at building a larger jail. 81% of people in that particular jail are awaiting trial, and presumably innocent until proven otherwise, and most are in for non-violent offenses. How can we expect that a larger facility would somehow be better, especially when the conditions at this one are so awful?

yeliab wrote:Putting jails and prisons far outside of the cities puts the problems out of sight/out of mind, and makes it harder for inmates' families to come visit, a significant factor in reducing recidivism. Also they often end up going in polluted areas.

We have a quarter of the world's prison population in the US (in large part for the purposes of providing cheap labor to multinational corporations). We should be looking at ways to reduce our imprisoned population rather than looking at building a larger jail. 81% of people in that particular jail are awaiting trial, and presumably innocent until proven otherwise, and most are in for non-violent offenses. How can we expect that a larger facility would somehow be better, especially when the conditions at this one are so awful?

I'm kind of thinking of a facility a la the Western Missouri Correctional Center and adjacent Crossroads Correctional Center, or the Potosi Correctional Center, Jefferson City Correctional Facility or South Central Correctional Center.

As for location, we don't have a lot of polluted areas except industrial areas along the river. But I would imagine the cost of land in those areas is way more than finding a piece of property out in the countryside.

Yes, it puts it out of sight and out of mind. But it gives a more "humane" environment. Right now it seems the prison is just a hole we are dumping people into. Putting a facility out in the countryside allows our prisoners to roam about outside, partaking in outdoor sports and activities. The inmates wouldn't be "crammed" into the facility, and the ability to go outside would assist in lowering stress levels. I would imagine that it would also be a more controlled and controllable environment.

Let's get Burns and Mac on it.

UrbanKC wrote: I'm kind of thinking of a facility a la the Western Missouri Correctional Center and adjacent Crossroads Correctional Center, or the Potosi Correctional Center, Jefferson City Correctional Facility or South Central Correctional Center.

As for location, we don't have a lot of polluted areas except industrial areas along the river. But I would imagine the cost of land in those areas is way more than finding a piece of property out in the countryside.

Yes, it puts it out of sight and out of mind. But it gives a more "humane" environment. Right now it seems the prison is just a hole we are dumping people into. Putting a facility out in the countryside allows our prisoners to roam about outside, partaking in outdoor sports and activities. The inmates wouldn't be "crammed" into the facility, and the ability to go outside would assist in lowering stress levels. I would imagine that it would also be a more controlled and controllable environment.

I really doubt its necessary to incarcerate all of the 81% pre-trial people. The bail system is fundamentally discriminatory towards people who can't afford it (and ends up ruining lives in other ways -- they lose their jobs/position in school, families lose an income source, children lose a parent, etc. all before they're convicted of a crime). Many are incarcerated because we don't deal with mental health appropriately. Here's an article about abolishing cash bail as a method of reducing jail populations and why it is a good idea: https://www.nytimes.com/2015/05/09/opin ... -bail.html

Humane for who? It's not humane to put people far away from their loved ones. And areas with jails, if they are not put in places where there is already pollution, the land becomes more attractive for polluters that want to develop because 1) people don't want to live around prisons, so the land is cheap, and 2) prisoners have little political capital to fight back.

State and local governments are already in dire financial straits and it's not looking like its going to get better. I definitely don't think there is the economic (or social, or political) capital to expect that a plan for a jail/prison where prisoners have the resources to play outdoor sports/activities to lower their stress levels is realistic.

Overall, I just think there are so many issues with justice and carceral systems that we should be looking at, and moving them away (and suggesting a facility that holds even more inmates) doesn't address any of them. I think we have the opportunity to be forward thinking in how we handle this and try to look at some of the systemic issues to develop a more equitable society.

Bail reform would have to come from the state though, yeah?

The article above talks about the mayor developing a plan, but I’m not certain. My position is obviously for reducing incarceration, so I think it would be wise to push for bail abolition to develop political and social capital, even if it’s not possible immediately or at the local level, while pushing for a smaller, more manageable, less expensive facility and putting the other resources toward the root causes (alternatives to jail for those with mental illness, combating poverty, economic investment, etc).

yeliab wrote:The article above talks about the mayor developing a plan, but I’m not certain. My position is obviously for reducing incarceration, so I think it would be wise to push for bail abolition to develop political and social capital, even if it’s not possible immediately or at the local level, while pushing for a smaller, more manageable, less expensive facility and putting the other resources toward the root causes (alternatives to jail for those with mental illness, combating poverty, economic investment, etc).

The way to reduce incarceration is to decriminalize particular victim-less crimes. The number of people imprisoned in the US for marijuana possession/dealing is absurd.

Highlander wrote:The way to reduce incarceration is to decriminalize particular victim-less crimes. The number of people imprisoned in the US for marijuana possession/dealing is absurd.

Agree 100%. Most people in that jail are there because they can't afford not to be, not because they have been tried or convicted of violent crimes. It's really quite sad, because as one segment of society rots away in jail for pot, in other places there are already wealthy businessmen manipulating the legalization process so as to be the beneficiaries. Obviously CO is making so much money off of taxation too, so they can have nice things as an additional benefit.

yeliab wrote:

UrbanKC wrote: I'm kind of thinking of a facility a la the Western Missouri Correctional Center and adjacent Crossroads Correctional Center, or the Potosi Correctional Center, Jefferson City Correctional Facility or South Central Correctional Center.

As for location, we don't have a lot of polluted areas except industrial areas along the river. But I would imagine the cost of land in those areas is way more than finding a piece of property out in the countryside.

Yes, it puts it out of sight and out of mind. But it gives a more "humane" environment. Right now it seems the prison is just a hole we are dumping people into. Putting a facility out in the countryside allows our prisoners to roam about outside, partaking in outdoor sports and activities. The inmates wouldn't be "crammed" into the facility, and the ability to go outside would assist in lowering stress levels. I would imagine that it would also be a more controlled and controllable environment.

I really doubt its necessary to incarcerate all of the 81% pre-trial people. The bail system is fundamentally discriminatory towards people who can't afford it (and ends up ruining lives in other ways -- they lose their jobs/position in school, families lose an income source, children lose a parent, etc. all before they're convicted of a crime). Many are incarcerated because we don't deal with mental health appropriately. Here's an article about abolishing cash bail as a method of reducing jail populations and why it is a good idea: https://www.nytimes.com/2015/05/09/opin ... -bail.html

Humane for who? It's not humane to put people far away from their loved ones. And areas with jails, if they are not put in places where there is already pollution, the land becomes more attractive for polluters that want to develop because 1) people don't want to live around prisons, so the land is cheap, and 2) prisoners have little political capital to fight back.

State and local governments are already in dire financial straits and it's not looking like its going to get better. I definitely don't think there is the economic (or social, or political) capital to expect that a plan for a jail/prison where prisoners have the resources to play outdoor sports/activities to lower their stress levels is realistic.

Overall, I just think there are so many issues with justice and carceral systems that we should be looking at, and moving them away (and suggesting a facility that holds even more inmates) doesn't address any of them. I think we have the opportunity to be forward thinking in how we handle this and try to look at some of the systemic issues to develop a more equitable society.

You can talk equitable societies and unicorns all you want - we still need to maintain our crumbling infrastructure and do what we can to keep US prisoners from suffering through third world squalor on a daily basis. I don't think anyone disagrees with you about our justice system - but I think most here feel we need to do something about the current situation (new prison or major updates to this one) while we work towards a solution for the future.

WSPanic wrote:You can talk equitable societies and unicorns all you want - we still need to maintain our crumbling infrastructure and do what we can to keep US prisoners from suffering through third world squalor on a daily basis. I don't think anyone disagrees with you about our justice system - but I think most here feel we need to do something about the current situation (new prison or major updates to this one) while we work towards a solution for the future.

Unicorns... lol. You realize there are more equitable societies within the US and abroad? My personal "unicorn" is prison abolition and reevaluating the concepts of punishment and reintegration altogether, but I realize that is not immediately realistic (though it is an idea that had a significant amount of support in the 70s and is seeing a resurgence in the discussion around prisons). And most of what you seem to think is my unicorn involves getting prisoners from suffering from 3rd world conditions by reducing incarceration (though I wonder how much you've thought the third world conditions of prisoners unrelated to to this conversation about the correctional facility since none of what I've said is particularly novel).

Everything that I've brought up are things that we absolutely should be thinking about now as we are in the process of decision-making. If our goal is to reduce incarceration long term, that is a long term project that requires long term thinking and planning, especially when it comes to political feasibility. Right now, there are people in there waiting for years to go to trial, which puts additional pressure on the infrastructure because its over-crowded. I don't think that coupling policy to reduce pre-trial and non-violent offender incarcerations with either building a smaller prison or updating the current prison to house a more manageable level of individuals is unrealistic.

Curious to hear your suggestions though.

1) Bring back the death penalty for rape, child molestation, first degree and anyone with 3+ felonies.
2) Create dirt cheap homeless camps like Sheriff Arpaio had in AZ to get dopers, drunks and homeless off of the street.
That would save trillions over years.
Use the saved $$ to make a real difference in education and those that truly need it - those with disabilities.


People with real disabilities should not be homeless. But we waste $$ on coddling criminals.
America is a free country, you're free to be what you want to be.
That's why we have so many losers destroying everything.
I blame the cucked, self-loathing, worthless leftists.

After we make the immediate changes in crime/punishment, then start analyzing how we eliminate the leftists.

I always love this argument. Rather than put in the hard work and make difficult decisions to fix the problems we face, let's just kill them all! That will surely solve the problems we face

I can't imagine why there's any support for the death penalty in this country. Execution has always seemed absolutely medieval to me.

UrbanKC wrote: ...safer to locate the prison in the countryside of Jackson County...

Safer for who?

TheLastGentleman wrote:I can't imagine why there's any support for the death penalty in this country. Execution has always seemed absolutely medieval to me.

Does the thought of such an archaic death keep you from committing a crime that would lead to such a death?

Politics aside - this is one building that most likely isn't going to be renovated into apartments when it no longer serves its current purpose. Not much else you can do with it and it's a pretty substantial building.

NorthOak wrote:1) Bring back the death penalty for rape, child molestation, first degree and anyone with 3+ felonies.
2) Create dirt cheap homeless camps like Sheriff Arpaio had in AZ to get dopers, drunks and homeless off of the street.
That would save trillions over years.
Use the saved $$ to make a real difference in education and those that truly need it - those with disabilities.


People with real disabilities should not be homeless. But we waste $$ on coddling criminals.
America is a free country, you're free to be what you want to be.
That's why we have so many losers destroying everything.
I blame the cucked, self-loathing, worthless leftists.

After we make the immediate changes in crime/punishment, then start analyzing how we eliminate the leftists.

I'll say this and drop the topic; What if somebody is falsely convicted for a crime and put to death? If it's discovered they were innocent, it's too late. They're dead. It's just too permanent.

Eliminating political rivals? Jesus.