KS/MO thread #235233

GuyInLenexa · Post by **GuyInLenexa** » Mon Oct 13, 2003 8:58 am

If KCMO would get rid of their municipal income tax, many people would not mind at all to work there.
I am certain that is one factor in any company moving. It was with Sprint.
Gee, I think I will picket Wadell and Reed if they decide to move to KCMO and leave JOCO...............

KCPowercat · Post by **KCPowercat** » Mon Oct 13, 2003 9:13 am

this is how silly people are....yes there is a 1% e-tax.....but if you look at entire tax rate considering KCMO vs. random KS suburb community....KCMO is lower overall.

Post by **dangerboy** » Mon Oct 13, 2003 9:22 am

GuyInLenexa wrote:If KCMO would get rid of their municipal income tax, many people would not mind at all to work there.
I am certain that is one factor in any company moving. It was with Sprint.
Gee, I think I will picket Wadell and Reed if they decide to move to KCMO and leave JOCO...............

The overall tax burden is still lower in Missouri. Property taxes are generally lower, especially south of the river, and the Missouri income tax is lower than in Kansas. Depending on where you shop, sales taxes can also be lower.

As for Sprint, they moved from from Westwood to Overland Park, so I don't see how the earnings tax would be relavent to Sprint. Expect for a few buildings in south KC, they have never had much of a presence in Missouri.

GuyInLenexa · Post by **GuyInLenexa** » Mon Oct 13, 2003 9:34 am

But for the half a million people living in JOCO and working in KCMO, the increase would not be silly at all. A family making a combined income of $100,000.00 living on the KS side would have to pay $1,000.00 a year plus the cost of a commute of 12-14 miles. Not to mention parking, panhandlers, etc.
I love KCMO but it does not have some key elements that would attract young families back into the central city. Anyone who thinks that schools are not a factor are in denial, as well as the crime rate.
JOCO people are not giving up their schools to move to KCMO. Schools are the main reason JOCO came to be in the first place.
I understand that KCMO (twenty years ago) had a public shcool that rated among the top twenty in the nation.
I have lived in several dynamic growing cities, all with dynamic growing downtowns. I never had to pay a city income taxes in any of them, and all of them had downtowns in better shape than KCMOs.
KCMO should tax their property not the people who work there. What was the purpose of that to begin with? How does it improve KCMO??
I think that is one factor that causes many companies to leave for the suburbs. I am sure if you look at all cities that have the same in the central city, you will find the same situation.

GuyInLenexa · Post by **GuyInLenexa** » Mon Oct 13, 2003 9:41 am

Regarding Sprint, there was some research on locating the world headquarters to KCMO. This was in the early 90's. We had several floors of Ond KC Place, there was talk of putting a complex of high rises south of downtown.
I was working for the company at that time. Sprint owned the land were the campus was supposed to be at the time, probably the major factor, the plan for KCMO was not considered. I remember that one factor was that many KS residents did not.
Taxes may be higher in JOCO, but I can see what they are going for. When I lived in KCMO I often questioned where the money went.
Again, tax the property, those working in the city.
Drop the crime and bad schools, they will come

KCPowercat · Post by **KCPowercat** » Mon Oct 13, 2003 9:43 am

schools don't mean crap to me or any other people in my demographics....if schools are important, why not move up north...cheaper housing, cheaper cost of living and good schools...that's what we plan to do when we decide to have kids.

Panhandlers? come on...Crime? Only crime I've ever had committed against me or my property was living in a KS suburb.....take that for what you will.

This is getting way off topic...you want to debate the 100th version of KS/MO, that's fine, just don't do it here....these are official development threads to talk about the actual development.

Post by **dangerboy** » Mon Oct 13, 2003 10:19 am

Was Sprint's consideration of moving Downtown ever serious, or was it the usual attempt to play one city against the other to get bigger tax breaks from Overland Park? What land did they own?

scooterj · Post by **scooterj** » Mon Oct 13, 2003 10:29 am

KC wrote:Crime? Only crime I've ever had committed against me or my property was living in a KS suburb.....take that for what you will.

Since finishing college I have lived in Blue Springs, the Hyde Park area of KC, the Crestwood area of KC, Overland Park, Olathe, and Downtown KC (River Market).

In that time I have had 2 crimes comitted against me within the KC city limits. I had 2 in Blue Springs, 1 in Overland Park, and 1 in Olathe. I have experienced no crime of any kind since moving Downtown.

The time I have lived in KC is equal than the amount of time I lived in the 3 suburbs combined. Yet, I experienced twice as many crimes in the suburbs.

So, there you have it.

The Summit · Post by **The Summit** » Mon Oct 13, 2003 12:26 pm

Why do people on the KS side think that all the good schools are in Johnson County? We live in LS now after moving from OP and after doing a little research, I found out that there are actually more reputable school districts on the MO side than there are on the Kansas side. Of course this may be due to the fact that there are a lot more people on the Missouri side, but regardless, I get tired of hearing these types of comments from people.

Also, my taxes are much lower on that I have moved to MO, (not that I wouldn't pay more for better roads and KC regional issues).

Sorry to keep this off topic

H&R Block seems very committed to the core and they will do the right thing, I think it would be a PR nightmare for them to jump the state line.

Royals Fan · Post by **Royals Fan** » Mon Oct 13, 2003 12:54 pm

I understand that KCMO (twenty years ago) had a public shcool that rated among the top twenty in the nation.

That's really a dumb thing to say, I graduated from Northeast High (KC Interscholastic) in 1980 and it was a cesspool then. KCMO has never had even a 'decent' school system in my lifetime.

I'm all for downtown and KCMO, kill the KCSD school board and raze the suburbs. Everything will be just fine then.

The problem I have with the Kansas suburbs is this: so many of the people there came from somwhere else ( outside of KC, another state or somewhere in fartville Kansas) and relocated to the area. I was talking to a little hottie that told me she lived at 151st & 169 Hwy and I told her I lived near the city market. She has lived here for 2 YEARS! and didn't have a clue where that was! Can you believe this sh%@?

KCPowercat · Post by **KCPowercat** » Mon Oct 13, 2003 12:57 pm

well time to educate her and show her your pad

I'm moving part of this thread to general...sorry guys, gotten too far out there.

QueSi2Opie · Post by **QueSi2Opie** » Mon Oct 13, 2003 1:02 pm

The Summit wrote:Why do people on the KS side think that all the good schools are in Johnson County?

Dunno about now, but wasn't the Blue Valley School District ranked the best in North America several years ago? I believe those rankings left there mark on the metropolitan area and gives JOCO one bragging tool.

QueSi2Opie · Post by **QueSi2Opie** » Mon Oct 13, 2003 1:12 pm

Don't blame us, blame some of the many national magazine sources.

Kid Friendly
Overland Park ranked first out of 74 similar cities nationwide, earning it an "A+" on the "Kid Friendly Cities Report Card." Indicators ranked included population change, health, health improvement, education, public safety, economics and environment. This is the second time Overland Park has ranked highly. In the 1999 survey, Overland Park ranked sixth out of 92. The Deanna Rose Children's Farmstead was given an "extra credit" for special kid friendly features.
Source: "Zero Population Growthâ€™s Kid Friendly Cities Study," August 2001.
Click Here to see the 2001 rating.
Click Here to see the 1999 study.

Second-best City in America to Live
According to "Business Development Outlook," the City of Overland Park is the second-best city in America to live. The magazineâ€™s ratings were based on scientific measurements of public safety, daily commute times, access to culture and entertainment, and good education. The study used data from the 2000 US Census and rated more than 4,700 American cities. In 1999, the magazine ranked Overland Park the sixth best city in America to live.
Source: "Business Development Outlook," 2001.

One of the Best Places to Conduct Business
The City of Overland Park has been ranked as the 10th best city in the United States for doing business. The study compared U.S. cities with populations of more than 100,000 in areas such as availability of executive, administrative and management labor; education levels; crime; commute times; transportation costs; and housing costs.
Source: "Business Development Outlook," Annual Top Choice Cities Rankings. 2000.

One of the 20 Best Places to Live & Work
According to "Employment Review" magazine and BestJobsUSA.com, Overland Park was selected as one of the 20 Best Places to Live & Work. The selection looks at lifestyle, cost of living, industries, current unemployment rate, the healthcare system, education, recreation and arts.
Source: "Employment Review," 20 Best Places to Live & Work, June 2003.

Second Smartest City in America
Overland Park has been ranked as the "second smartest" city in the country, according to a study that examined cities with the highest percentage of residents age 25 and over with four-year college degrees. At the time of the study, more than 36 percent of Overland Park residents had four-year college degrees. Today, more than 40 percent of Southern Johnson County residents hold bachelorâ€™s degrees.
Source: "Applied Geographic Solutions," 2000.

Top 10 City for Women
Overland Park has made the top ten list of "Americaâ€™s Best Cities for Women." That was the conclusion when "Ladiesâ€™ Home Journal" surveyed more than 200 of Americaâ€™s largest cities on concerns such as local economy, wage gaps, job growth, lifestyle, cultural resources, public schools, health and child-care resources. "Our very top ten winners were not only healthy, but also wealthy and wise, and all had better-than-average economies and job prospects."
Source: "Ladiesâ€™ Home Journal," 2001. Click Here to read the article.

Top Notch Schools
Overland Park is served by three public school districts, which are consistently rated among the nations best. In 2003, "Expansion Management" magazine rated more than 1,500 school districts nationwide with a student population of at lease 4,800 in areas such as graduate outcome, resource index and community index. Based on a top score of 99, all three Overland Park school districts received gold medals. The Shawnee Mission School District, the Blue Valley School District and the Olathe School District.
Source: "Expansion Management - Annual Education Quotient Study," 2003.

Great Place to Raise Your Family
In 1998, Overland Park was listed as the 18th best city in America to raise a family, according to ratings released in "50 Fabulous Places to Raise Your Family." Criteria for these rankings were based on a strong economic outlook, exceptional public schools, diversified housing markets, recreation and family fun, affordability, taxes, crime, medical care and the environment.
Source: "50 Fabulous Places to Raise Your Family," 1997.

Public Safety
Using 27 public safety benchmarks as a rating scale, the City of Overland Park Police Department received the second highest performance ranking compared to some of the nationâ€™s most respected communities and police departments. "Overland Park finished second only to Naperville, Illinois and then only by a very small margin," sayâ€™s Overland Park Police Chief John M. Douglass.
Source: "1997 Benchmark Cities Survey," 1998.

Johnson County Library
The Johnson County Library system, serving the Overland Park area, has been rated as the second best library system in the nation among libraries serving communities with populations from 250,000 to 499,000.
Source: "Hennenâ€™s American Public Library Rating Index," 2002.

Post by **bahua** » Mon Oct 13, 2003 5:39 pm

There are not even a half a million people living in JOCO, much less half a million that work, and much much less half a million that work in KCMO. The total 2000 county population was about 430,000, just a hair behind Sedgewick county(Wichita). It's probably grown in the last two years, but not nearly to the level you refer to.

The "best places to live" listings are always catered to suburban life, and rarely speak well of cities, so I take them with a grain of salt. Also, they're focused on family living, which many urban dwellers forsake until they get a bit older.

As for the city income tax, I say drop it. It clearly doesn't do anything for the city. Where are the good schools? Where are the city services? Where are the civic improvement proposals that don't beseech the citizenry to raise sales taxes on themselves? It has failed to produce any positive impact, and has succeeded to doing what income taxes do: cause people to stop working, or work/live somewhere else.

It's the same story with property(real estate & personal) taxes, except that KC has an incredible opportunity to turn the tables immeasurably in their favor by eliminating it in favor of a different tax that discourages failure, and encourages success across the board. With land value taxation, the city would get all the money they need, and more, and because of the freedom it imparts to the property owners, the city would become a more active, successful place, which most people, it appears, have ruled out as a possibility.

Put simply, people choose to live in the suburbs(in MO or KS) because the city's current policies chase them and their employers away, and further, make it very difficult to do business in any manner that doesn't wholly involve the city. This causes money to leave the city, raising unemployment, poverty, crime, and school inefficacy. Then, the city thinks that arenas and performing arts centers will make people forget about these problems and move back anyway. Idiotic.

Post by **mean** » Mon Oct 13, 2003 6:22 pm

This causes money to leave the city, raising unemployment, poverty, crime, and school inefficacy. Then, the city thinks that arenas and performing arts centers will make people forget about these problems and move back anyway. Idiotic.

I think you're right on the money. We have some pretty serious but not unfixable problems here, and instead of fixing them the city government plays "ignore and distract" -- ignore the problems and distract the population's attention from them. The PAC will be awesome, gorgeous, stunningly radical. But we'll still have 150-year old sewers, a horrible and getting worse transit system, and acres upon acres of un- and underdeveloped land. An arena would be killer, might even be able to bring the Royals downtown someday (lifelong dream of mine). That would rule in a major way, but we'd still have some of the worst roads and bridges, worst schools, and the (second? third?) highest crime rate in the country.

Citizens are encouraged to ignore the bad, forget about it, sweep it under the rug. Certainly we do that here a lot, and it's not always a good thing. Maybe we citizens can underemphasize the bad and overemphasize the good in our minds, but believe me, people and businesses considering moving here will not be so foolish.

GuyInLenexa · Post by **GuyInLenexa** » Mon Oct 13, 2003 6:30 pm

I agree with your statement, I agree that land valuation is the way any municipal government should go to.
But doesn't KCMO already have something like that in place? Or is it done differently? I never owned property there.
Only one thing I have to back myself up on, Johnson County's population.
The total JOCO population on 7/1/2002 was 476,536. Larger than Sedgwick and larger than Kansas City MO. If it grew by what it did between 2001 and 2002 (5.64%) it would be over 500,000. If it grew just half of that, it would be very close.

http://www.ku.edu/pri/ksdata/ksah/population/#county

I also agree that many of the "places rated" are not based on those who like living in the urban lifestyle.
I do not have allegiance to either state, I am not from here. I see the differences of the lifestyles of the urban core and the suburbs as part of the general populace’s diversity. I think in greater KC we have great locations for anyone to live in an urban or suburban lifestyle. We are all part of the same metropolis.

Brooksider · Post by **Brooksider** » Mon Oct 13, 2003 9:22 pm

The Star just reported this summer that JoCo just passed sedgewick county in population at about 430,000. Their growth is about 12,000 per year while Wichita is only growing at about 2,000 per year.
As for KCMO schools, deseg is what killed them. The city has no control over the schools, the courts do. Shawnee Mission is still rated the best school district in the metro followed by Olathe, Lee's Summit, and then Blue Valley.

QueSi2Opie · Post by **QueSi2Opie** » Mon Oct 13, 2003 9:26 pm

We need to fix the problems of the city as well as continue to have vision by adding new attractions which will spark new investment. I still believe the federal government and our own brush-under-the-rug history is the cause for bad schools and crime in our American cities. Meanwhile, the cities still have to continue to become the best they can be by adding retail, resturants and attractions which can employee a ton more people.

Can you jus' imagine how many inner-city jobs can be created by an entertainment district, a new arena, and maybe a new H&R Block headquarters?

It will take decades to bring people above the poverty line and improve inner-city schools!!! So should we ignore things like downtown stadiums/arts until this is done, while other cities continue to develop wonderful downtown areas and KC gets further & further behind?

THINK ABOUT IT!!!

Post by **dangerboy** » Mon Oct 13, 2003 9:36 pm

There are only two really good districts in Joco - Blue Valley and Olathe. There others are good, but not stellar. Yes, Shawnee-Mission used to be top shelf, but they are in a downward spiral of declining enrollment and declining revenue - being killed by the same sprawl that made them so good. If they were more aggresive about closing underutilized schools they could slow the decline, but the patrons cling to their neighborhood buildings.

Meanwhile, on the Missouri side you have Lee's Summit, Park Hill, Liberty, and Blue Springs that are just as good as Blue Valley. North Kansas City and Independence are not far behind. There is just a much greater variety of choices on the Missouri side. You can go north, east, or south and find excellent schools, it's not limited to the far southwest corner like in Joco.

GRID · Post by **GRID** » Mon Oct 13, 2003 9:59 pm

dangerboy wrote:There are only two really good districts in Joco - Blue Valley and Olathe. There others are good, but not stellar. Yes, Shawnee-Mission used to be top shelf, but they are in a downward spiral of declining enrollment and declining revenue - being killed by the same sprawl that made them so good. If they were more aggresive about closing underutilized schools they could slow the decline, but the patrons cling to their neighborhood buildings.

Meanwhile, on the Missouri side you have Lee's Summit, Park Hill, Liberty, and Blue Springs that are just as good as Blue Valley. North Kansas City and Independence are not far behind. There is just a much greater variety of choices on the Missouri side. You can go north, east, or south and find excellent schools, it's not limited to the far southwest corner like in Joco.

Exactly, Shawnee Mission is right there with Raytown right now, and believe it or not, Raytown is not a bad school district.

There are more good districts in MO than KS and they are in better finacial shape (which is just amazing in itself).

But I too constantly hear it from random people, on the internet, and in publications that the KS side is where the good schools are. Whatever.